d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Taxatation Is Theft 2024
Prev1567
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 20,758
Joined: Jul 21 2005
Gold: 6,376.70
Feb 3 2024 10:24am
Quote (ChocolateCoveredGummyBears @ 3 Feb 2024 09:14)
that's the disconnect (or part where we don't agree on). if you try to quit or get disciplined, the worst is what a write up? the comparison is not the same at all, and that's a huge distinct difference

^SwamiVivekananda i feel you about the housing stuff it is pretty ridiculous. regarding your worldview, i also think a lot of that is from different perspectives on life. my mom worked for over 25 years for the state and she's enjoying a good pension and retirement. sadly, the newer people are not getting the same pension plans.

one of my buddies i worked with at home depot was a retired e-9 in the military. his body ran laps around all the new hires. in fact, a lot of the co-workers were retired people just bored out of their minds slinging boxes and sweating bullets. some were even in their 60s. saw the same at amazon.

you can either life through a negative worldview thinking you're worst than the slaves that were tortured and hanged, or find joy in your physical work or shocker incoming: voluntary quit and go drive for fcking uber/dd if all else fails. there's really no excuse, and the comparisons to actual slavery sound like some /r/antiwork crap


You're funny. Your anecdotes are pointless, first off. Second off, you don't address the true comparison at all. We've already acknowledged that Slaves had no choice. And if they tried to create a choice, they were hanged. That's fine.

Economic Slavery isn't compared to slavery because people are whipped for not working hard enough. Economic Slavery is all about no matter HOW hard you work, no matter HOW productive you are, you will be earning nothing more than a bare subsistent wage IF THAT. 40-50 year olds having to live with 3+ room mates because they can't afford basic rent with their low pay isn't a joke.

Comparing people with a military pension and government workers with their ridiculous pensions to the people who pull all the heavy lifting to keep your stores stocked and get your orders delivered to you is boneheaded bullshit.
Member
Posts: 15,268
Joined: Jul 9 2021
Gold: 455.97
Feb 3 2024 10:37am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Feb 3 2024 08:24am)
You're funny. Your anecdotes are pointless, first off. Second off, you don't address the true comparison at all. We've already acknowledged that Slaves had no choice. And if they tried to create a choice, they were hanged. That's fine.

Economic Slavery isn't compared to slavery because people are whipped for not working hard enough. Economic Slavery is all about no matter HOW hard you work, no matter HOW productive you are, you will be earning nothing more than a bare subsistent wage IF THAT. 40-50 year olds having to live with 3+ room mates because they can't afford basic rent with their low pay isn't a joke.

Comparing people with a military pension and government workers with their ridiculous pensions to the people who pull all the heavy lifting to keep your stores stocked and get your orders delivered to you is boneheaded bullshit.


that's fine? no it's not fine. you can choose to work wherever you want, the comparison is not the same.

the point is, even the retired folks i worked with, were unloading 2-3 trucks a night and filling those shelves. gorilla carts, barbed wire, stocking carts of steel poles, jugs of cleaner, etc. all night. and they were in their 60s. they still ran laps over the newer hires. another issue, the newer generation doesn't have the same work ethic as them, it's so wildly different it's kinda sad you can't see that.

but please, continue thinking you're a slave that's about to get hanged because you didn't unload the truck or deliver enough packages fast enough. lmao good luck with that worldview

This post was edited by ChocolateCoveredGummyBears on Feb 3 2024 10:38am
Member
Posts: 20,758
Joined: Jul 21 2005
Gold: 6,376.70
Feb 3 2024 10:53am
Quote (ChocolateCoveredGummyBears @ 3 Feb 2024 09:37)
that's fine? no it's not fine. you can choose to work wherever you want, the comparison is not the same.

the point is, even the retired folks i worked with, were unloading 2-3 trucks a night and filling those shelves. gorilla carts, barbed wire, stocking carts of steel poles, jugs of cleaner, etc. all night. and they were in their 60s. they still ran laps over the newer hires. another issue, the newer generation doesn't have the same work ethic as them, it's so wildly different it's kinda sad you can't see that.

but please, continue thinking you're a slave that's about to get hanged because you didn't unload the truck or deliver enough packages fast enough. lmao good luck with that worldview


Don't behave as though you're a mental midget. No job = no money = starve. Not working, at least for us white male types, means nothing to eat, nowhere to live, aka a slow death.

You are perfectly fine with people being paid below-living wages and destroying out their backs, necks, knees and hands in the process. You say, "They can work elsewhere!" But that's the point. There's no competition among employers for heavy labor jobs. There's just not. It's the failure to pay living wages that's the issue. This is why warehouse workers at Amazon, Walmart, Kroger, Safeway, etc. have such a high turnover. They use people up and replace them.

Your next go-to is doubtless the typical moronic talking point, I'm sure, "Well they can just take some night classes and get a better job!" Sure. Assuming they could afford the night classes, that might be an option. But YOUR BASIC ABILITY TO BE FED AND CLOTHED AND HAVE NEAT TOYS REQUIRES WAREHOUSE WORKERS. Read that. Read it again. Then, before hitting the reply button, read it one more time. These are NECESSARY JOBS for the existence of human life in America. The jobs go undone, entire cities starve. Much like Truck Drivers, these are the people who are REQUIRED to supply the cities. Farmers don't need cities or governments. They're self-sufficient. The cities need the farmers, and they need the people who move product from the farms to the warehouses to the stores to your home. And yet complete idiots behave as though, "Well people should just get better jobs if they don't like below-living levels of pay!" NO. We MUST have those jobs. Every single "community worker" and "medical researcher" could fall off the face of the earth today, and nobody would notice a difference. So why is it they're paid 10x what the guy making it so you don't starve in the city is making? If every warehouse worker went on a 2 week strike, nationwide, every city would crumble by the third day. Looting, rioting, the works.

You treat other people as "lesser" and subject them to the most heavy labor jobs you can at rates of pay that do not provide for their necessities, then try to act like, "Well, at least you're not a slave!" Yes, they are. Economic slavery is real, and pieces of shit behave as though it's okay. "You could just quit!" "And starve?" "Well, get another job!" "It'll pay the same, I'll be in the same exact boat." "Then get an educattion and a better job!" "But my job still needs done or the nation dies." "HAHAH! Asif bro!"
Member
Posts: 27,775
Joined: Mar 24 2011
Gold: 2,036.00
Warn: 10%
Feb 3 2024 11:11am

Quote (ChocolateCoveredGummyBears @ 3 Feb 2024 10:14)
that's the disconnect (or part where we don't agree on). if you try to quit or get disciplined, the worst is what a write up? the comparison is not the same at all, and that's a huge distinct difference

^SwamiVivekananda i feel you about the housing stuff it is pretty ridiculous. regarding your worldview, i also think a lot of that is from different perspectives on life. my mom worked for over 25 years for the state and she's enjoying a good pension and retirement. sadly, the newer people are not getting the same pension plans.

one of my buddies i worked with at home depot was a retired e-9 in the military. his body ran laps around all the new hires. in fact, a lot of the co-workers were retired people just bored out of their minds slinging boxes and sweating bullets. some were even in their 60s. saw the same at amazon.

you can either live life through a negative worldview thinking you're worse than the slaves that were tortured and hanged, or find joy in your physical work or shocker incoming: voluntary quit and go drive for fcking uber/dd if all else fails. there's really no excuse, and the comparisons to actual slavery sound like some /r/antiwork crap



Quote (InsaneBobb @ 3 Feb 2024 05:00)
Worse than slaves in many respects. A slave was provided food, housing, clothes, and medical care by their owner.. Education as well, though not what you think of as education. Real "education" is teaching people what they need to know to live a productive life. While some slaves were used as butlers, accountants, etc. the majority were physical laborers. Teaching physical laborers literacy or algebra would simply waste their time, and their owner's investment. While the occasional abuse of slaves has been made into a massive thing, the majority of slaves were not abused, and the worst abuses tended to be carried out by foremen who were themselves slaves.

Fast forward to 100 years ago: Slavery is "gone". But if you want a job, you work for a corporation. The corporation provides food, housing, clothes, and education. Transportation is limited, and you're paid in corporate scrip. Scrip cannot be used to purchase vehicles or horses, the company does not offer such. The scrip is not usable anywhere outside the company. Thing is, all your needs are met, but you have no "freedom" because you can't leave, as you have nothing of value outside your corporate bubble. So they outlawed it.

Fast forward to today: Amazon pays $20/hour for delivery drivers. Sounds great! Unfortunately, $42K a year, especially under current pricing, isn't enough for a home loan. What you run into is along these lines: You can't get a home loan, so you rent. Rent prices on the same exact places that were $400 a month in 2000 are currently $1600 a month or higher. Electric bills that were $30 a month in 2000 are now $150-300 a month. Food that was $0.50 a pound in 2000 is now $3/lb. Before it's all said and done, the $42K/year you think you're making that's really $25K/year after taxes is completely absorbed in rent, food, clothes, and transportation. You can quit your job any time you want, but you'll lose everything by doing so, unless you go get a job somewhere else, which'll pay approximately the same wages, and put you in roughly the same circumstances. It's called economic slavery.

Take it to the next level though, let's say you DO get a home loan. You spend the next 20 years paying it off, you're gold! Not particularly. That $400,000 property you just spent a third of your adult life, sacrificing your time, your body, and your health paying for? Doesn't really belong to you. Which becomes apparent every single year when tax season comes around and you have to pay $4000-$10,000 in property tax simply to exist on your own land. Like, you just spent the last 20 years in the meat grinder to have your own spot. Maybe all you want to do is farm a bit of your own food, raise a couple pigs and cows, and keep to yourself. You've had enough of consumerism and making other people money, you just want to settle down and do your own thing, opt out of the market. Thing is, how? It doesn't matter if your property generates income. You don't actually own it. If you fail to pay your annual rent to the government, they seize it. If you don't participate in the market, aka hope back in the meat grinder, you aren't earning the USD to pay it.

Our entire system is designed AS slavery. Just without the chains. And it's far worse today than it was under corporate scrip OR slavery, because the head slave owner is the Government themselves, who've enacted laws that FORCE the working class to continue worrking. With the "promise" that after the age of 65, you can finally hang up the towel, the up and coming slaves, the new generations will pay for your life while you relax, body and soul broken by the endless whip of wage slavery.

It's great!


Appreciate both of your responses thank you ^ for better explaining what I couldn't.

I agree with you on the fact that some of our parents who busted their ass working blue collar jobs who SAVED their money and were smart about EVERY financial decision could lead to a life where they can enjoy their retirement. My parents never made a lot of money combined. Maybe 60k-80k(late 80's/90s) and then (100K) since. They put all that money into the house we grew up in and luckily for them the house they bought in the late 90s for 220k is now worth 660k but my parents still don't own the house outright and when they sell it they will "make some money" but they did everything right and I know so many people(family friends) who make a lot of money now and it's not going to equate to the "financial opportunity" our parents had.

The whole slavery analogy can be summed up by none other then the Dali Llama.

The Dalai Lama, when asked what surprised him most about humanity, answered "Man! Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”

Americans are simply the best slaves money can buy. We take on debt for shit we don't need. We are the top consumers on the planet. In terms of collateral the US government can use us "citizens" with our "SSN" and basically tell another country that they should invest in America because "our people" will buy anything and they'll even take out loans/etc. to try and afford something that they really can't.
Member
Posts: 20,758
Joined: Jul 21 2005
Gold: 6,376.70
Feb 3 2024 12:08pm
Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ 3 Feb 2024 10:11)
Appreciate both of your responses thank you ^^InsaneBobb for better explaining what I couldn't.

I agree with you on the fact that some of our parents who busted their ass working blue collar jobs who SAVED their money and were smart about EVERY financial decision could lead to a life where they can enjoy their retirement. My parents never made a lot of money combined. Maybe 60k-80k(late 80's/90s) and then (100K) since. They put all that money into the house we grew up in and luckily for them the house they bought in the late 90s for 220k is now worth 660k but my parents still don't own the house outright and when they sell it they will "make some money" but they did everything right and I know so many people(family friends) who make a lot of money now and it's not going to equate to the "financial opportunity" our parents had.

The whole slavery analogy can be summed up by none other then the Dali Llama.

The Dalai Lama, when asked what surprised him most about humanity, answered "Man! Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”

Americans are simply the best slaves money can buy. We take on debt for shit we don't need. We are the top consumers on the planet. In terms of collateral the US government can use us "citizens" with our "SSN" and basically tell another country that they should invest in America because "our people" will buy anything and they'll even take out loans/etc. to try and afford something that they really can't.


I think part of what is the most interesting is this vision people have of slaves that's really not born out. Like, the majority of plantation slaves didn't suffer any abuse whatsoever, and unless they'd tried to run away, didn't wear chains. They had duties they were expected to carry out, then they went off to their own housing, sang and danced and ate and drank. And of course made lots and lots of babies. And a huge portion of the slaves, after the emancipation proclamation, begged their former masters not to make them leave. They didn't care about money or any of that. They had it made. Had a job, purpose, clothes, food, shelter, and plenty of time after the work was done to get to the task of making babies.

The assumption that slavery was horrible by default is actually kind of weird. Also points to how poorly people regard each other. At the same time, you had other slaves that're discounted as "not ACTUAL slaves" aka indentured servants. Because of the fact that you owned not only black slaves for their entire lives, but their spawn as well, black slaves were as a whole very well treated. The exceptions are what people seem to think was the norm, and that's just not the case. Black slaves tended to be your household and workers for the farm/plantation/etc. Well fed, mostly well treated, and encouraged to breed as frequently as they saw fit. Now the Scottish or Irish or German or Asian indentured servants? When their indenture was done, they were free. A lot of their indentures were bought by mining companies and shipping companies. They were the people sent down into the mines to get black lung. On average they were poorly fed. And if they died, nobody cared. Likewise they were chained to the oars of ships, and given many other high lethality rate jobs. The black slave was an investment into the far future. The non-black had an expiration date, and the indenture holders tended to do everything they could to insure the non-blacks didn't survive their indenture. The non-blacks were treated far worse.
Member
Posts: 15,268
Joined: Jul 9 2021
Gold: 455.97
Feb 4 2024 12:23am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Feb 3 2024 08:53am)
Don't behave as though you're a mental midget. No job = no money = starve. Not working, at least for us white male types, means nothing to eat, nowhere to live, aka a slow death.

You are perfectly fine with people being paid below-living wages and destroying out their backs, necks, knees and hands in the process. You say, "They can work elsewhere!" But that's the point. There's no competition among employers for heavy labor jobs. There's just not. It's the failure to pay living wages that's the issue. This is why warehouse workers at Amazon, Walmart, Kroger, Safeway, etc. have such a high turnover. They use people up and replace them.

Your next go-to is doubtless the typical moronic talking point, I'm sure, "Well they can just take some night classes and get a better job!" Sure. Assuming they could afford the night classes, that might be an option. But YOUR BASIC ABILITY TO BE FED AND CLOTHED AND HAVE NEAT TOYS REQUIRES WAREHOUSE WORKERS. Read that. Read it again. Then, before hitting the reply button, read it one more time. These are NECESSARY JOBS for the existence of human life in America. The jobs go undone, entire cities starve. Much like Truck Drivers, these are the people who are REQUIRED to supply the cities. Farmers don't need cities or governments. They're self-sufficient. The cities need the farmers, and they need the people who move product from the farms to the warehouses to the stores to your home. And yet complete idiots behave as though, "Well people should just get better jobs if they don't like below-living levels of pay!" NO. We MUST have those jobs. Every single "community worker" and "medical researcher" could fall off the face of the earth today, and nobody would notice a difference. So why is it they're paid 10x what the guy making it so you don't starve in the city is making? If every warehouse worker went on a 2 week strike, nationwide, every city would crumble by the third day. Looting, rioting, the works.

You treat other people as "lesser" and subject them to the most heavy labor jobs you can at rates of pay that do not provide for their necessities, then try to act like, "Well, at least you're not a slave!" Yes, they are. Economic slavery is real, and pieces of shit behave as though it's okay. "You could just quit!" "And starve?" "Well, get another job!" "It'll pay the same, I'll be in the same exact boat." "Then get an educattion and a better job!" "But my job still needs done or the nation dies." "HAHAH! Asif bro!"


Lol, it sounds like you think people are thrown to the wolves right after kindergarten. Usually the parents support their kids while they work crap jobs while they find a career or maybe just continue working that "crappy warehouse" job that they like. I've met workers at these warehouse jobs that have been there for over 10 years, easily. Just because they like it and it's dumb and easy work. Amazon also starts at over 20+/hr over here. You also have people spending 1k a year on a new iphone and then complain their shitty warehouse job pays so bad.

Also, there's actually decent money in warehouse jobs. A lot of coworkers on my freight team went to drive forklifts for +$25/hr. Because as you know home Depot doesn't pay for shit. Again, options and the ability to choose where to work != Slavery. You honestly sound like a disgruntled employee just waiting to pull a columbine after clocking in

This post was edited by ChocolateCoveredGummyBears on Feb 4 2024 12:25am
Member
Posts: 20,758
Joined: Jul 21 2005
Gold: 6,376.70
Feb 4 2024 12:36am
Quote (ChocolateCoveredGummyBears @ 3 Feb 2024 23:23)
Lol, it sounds like you think people are thrown to the wolves right after kindergarten. Usually the parents support their kids while they work crap jobs while they find a career or maybe just continue working that "crappy warehouse" job that they like. I've met workers at these warehouse jobs that have been there for over 10 years, easily. Just because they like it and it's dumb and easy work. Amazon also starts at over 20+/hr over here. You also have people spending 1k a year on a new iphone and then complain their shitty warehouse job pays so bad.

Also, there's actually decent money in warehouse jobs. A lot of coworkers on my freight team went to drive forklifts for +$25/hr. Because as you know home Depot doesn't pay for shit. Again, options and the ability to choose where to work != Slavery. You honestly sound like a disgruntled employee just waiting to pull a columbine after clocking in


Mmmhmm. You know what Amazon is doing rather than paying their warehouse workers a decent enough wage that they don't need to shack up with roommates to afford a roof over their heads? Wasting a billion dollars making garbage like Rings of Power. Or hundreds of millions for Wheel of Time. Complete garbage shows so poorly done that the only question is: What'd you spend the money on?! Wasn't writers, costumes, star actors, or effects. Oh yeah, and building new production facilities in China for their Amazon Basics brand, which they've been sued countless times for making clones of shit in violation of patents.

I'm not a disgruntled worker. That's not the point at all. The point is that you can take 90% of all jobs that pay more than the warehouse worker and remove them from existence, and the average person won't see any change in their daily life. Remove the warehouse worker, cities starve. These jobs don't exist because some people are "lesser". These jobs exist because without them, people starve, freeze, etc. And you'll notice, I'm not saying anything about the cashiers or the burger flippers or the barista. I'm talking specifically about heavy labor jobs that are mandatory for the continued functioning of our society.
Member
Posts: 7,248
Joined: May 11 2009
Gold: 5.00
Feb 4 2024 09:21am
I don't see the US federal tax system surviving rampant inflation. I make good money and can feel the pinch between wages not keeping up with inflation and government raising the taxes because base valuations are up (artificial inflated). Then there are areas were government historically has provided that it no longer provides like 5 day public school weeks, yet taxes never went down. Paying more for less, then getting taxed more cause you forced to pay more.
Member
Posts: 27,775
Joined: Mar 24 2011
Gold: 2,036.00
Warn: 10%
Feb 4 2024 11:53am
Quote (ChocolateCoveredGummyBears @ 4 Feb 2024 00:23)
Lol, it sounds like you think people are thrown to the wolves right after kindergarten. Usually the parents support their kids while they work crap jobs while they find a career or maybe just continue working that "crappy warehouse" job that they like. I've met workers at these warehouse jobs that have been there for over 10 years, easily. Just because they like it and it's dumb and easy work. Amazon also starts at over 20+/hr over here. You also have people spending 1k a year on a new iphone and then complain their shitty warehouse job pays so bad.

Also, there's actually decent money in warehouse jobs. A lot of coworkers on my freight team went to drive forklifts for +$25/hr. Because as you know home Depot doesn't pay for shit. Again, options and the ability to choose where to work != Slavery. You honestly sound like a disgruntled employee just waiting to pull a columbine after clocking in


No one likes working the crappy warehouse job bud I'm sorry. You can love your co-workers and the easiness of the job that AI is about to replace but your still just another "brick in the wall". As mentioned before Amazon/FedEX/UPS have the worst employee retention numbers. This is because their wage AFTER taxes in most states is LESS then 20/hr. The minimum wage in my state went from 7.50/hr to 15/hr and over the course of those years every expense went up and so even doubling the minimum wage hasn't translated into jack shit. This George Carlin quote is more applicable today then ever before.

“But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education sucks, and it’s the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want: They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests. Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table to figure out how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you, sooner or later, 'cause they own this fucking place. It's a big club, and you ain’t in it. You and I are not in the big club. And by the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head in their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted folks. The game is rigged, and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people -- white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on -- good honest hard-working people continue -- these are people of modest means -- continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don't care about you at all -- at all -- at all. And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on; the fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that's being jammed up their assholes everyday. Because the owners of this country know the truth: it's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.”
― George Carlin

This post was edited by SwamiVivekananda on Feb 4 2024 11:56am
Member
Posts: 29,844
Joined: Oct 25 2005
Gold: 5,895.00
Feb 5 2024 01:04am
Yawn
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1567
Add Reply New Topic New Poll