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Mar 23 2012 06:14am
Quote (Skibum @ Mar 23 2012 12:01pm)
it's hard skills, jsut tested .
also ran the all 3/20/20's through an excel file I made. It's very close to the 6 gcs build. hits a little harder physical, but it's not too noticeable.
this is part of my my spreadsheet, if you can follow it. green would be my sin with 3/20/20s and blue is all 3/20/20's with 5 20/5's.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/skibumologist/qqww.jpg


Why is AR lower on the second setup, cause of 5 20/5s ? Anyways, max damage is useful vs non block, lower deff opponents, vs higher the arguments change.
Also vs max block nec its cool to have max damage charms, so the armor gets removed asap and so that WW actually can outtank him.
I use 5GCs if I remember, to hit all the important skill breakpoints.

But I think this OW and AR setup should be checked in some paladin duels. Any comments on this setup ?

This post was edited by monSt4r on Mar 23 2012 06:18am
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Mar 23 2012 06:26am
Quote (monSt4r @ Mar 23 2012 08:14am)
Why is AR lower on the second setup, cause of 5 20/5s ? Anyways, max damage is useful vs non block, lower deff opponents, vs higher the arguments change.
Also vs max block nec its cool to have max damage charms, so the armor gets removed asap and so that WW actually can outtank him.
I use 5GCs if I remember, to hit all the important skill breakpoints.

But I think this OW and AR setup should be checked in some paladin duels. Any comments on this setup ?


yeah, i did use 1 res charm too many. I realised that after the fact. but it wont make up 1k ar. I took out my 30ed/9dex/10res/60 ar jewel for a ber rune so I could keep 50 dr. so I needed to make up res.
im guessing it's lower because the bonus to ar is lower via claw mastery. and I used 36ar charms for ar bonus on gc setup. I agree that it would be better vs low defense, but it wouldn't be a deciding factor in the outcome of the duel. I'm not sold on high defense though. It's often a one and out ww against shit like v/t's and hdins, so i think the psn dmg would over power the 20 or so dmg more ull do with max/ar/life scs. But I could be wrong. Either way I'm not paying that much for an inventory, you can test it out in pvp if you like.
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Mar 23 2012 06:27am
nice guide but i don't like put points in dex, prefer full vita always
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Mar 23 2012 07:37am
Quote (Skibum @ Mar 23 2012 12:26pm)
yeah, i did use 1 res charm too many. I realised that after the fact. but it wont make up 1k ar. I took out my 30ed/9dex/10res/60 ar jewel for a ber rune so I could keep 50 dr. so I needed to make up res.
im guessing it's lower because the bonus to ar is lower via claw mastery. and I used 36ar charms for ar bonus on gc setup. I agree that it would be better vs low defense, but it wouldn't be a deciding factor in the outcome of the duel. I'm not sold on high defense though. It's often a one and out ww against shit like v/t's and hdins, so i think the psn dmg would over power the 20 or so dmg more ull do with max/ar/life scs. But I could be wrong. Either way I'm not paying that much for an inventory, you can test it out in pvp if you like.


No, I completely agree on some GCs usage. In fact I do use 5-6 GC and I have gulli with 28ed/59AR/9dex/2XLR :)
Actually I went through a lot of inventory setups over the years, and the well balanced one seems like the best option (half GC/half max/ar/life) for now. I also like the DEX thing, but I have cca 4100-4400 life with all vita, so it's not like I can pump much :)
And all the dex pumping and item and charm setup will go obsolete if the Angelic OW system could be implemented within normal conditions/penalties.
The ugliest duel of all (ugliest in terms of fun/efficiency), the paladin duel, could become a lot more comfortable with the Angelics and OW, instead of trying to dish out Physical damage to a high deff block char while hoping for the OW to get inflicted. I asked a lot of paladins I dueled have I inflicted OWs, how many times and such, and with 35% on both claws it was not really that great in practise. You might think that it is not needed cause it lasts 8 seconds, and you hit a lot and what not, but if the paladin gets OW every time he gets touched, resetting the timer of OW plus poison hanging there also, maybe it is the way.

I tried for the highest damage I could go for, gulli+gores for extra CB and OW but I still feel not comfortable enough (still better then without them). Now don't get me wrong, I win vs paladins, but after the duel I feel similar to the feeling when I kill a BvB with Widowmaker aka "I just used 300+ arrows to win". Am I asking too much ? :)

Also if the barb switches his axe (which deals considerable bigger chunk of life when inflicted) for an OW axe (give feedback on this if true), it would be bad to presume that assa should not try to implement angelics and more OW for the price of everything else.
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Mar 23 2012 08:04am
Quote (monSt4r @ 23 Mar 2012 14:37)
No, I completely agree on some GCs usage. In fact I do use 5-6 GC and I have gulli with 28ed/59AR/9dex/2XLR :)
Actually I went through a lot of inventory setups over the years, and the well balanced one seems like the best option (half GC/half max/ar/life) for now. I also like the DEX thing, but I have cca 4100-4400 life with all vita, so it's not like I can pump much :)
And all the dex pumping and item and charm setup will go obsolete if the Angelic OW system could be implemented within normal conditions/penalties.
The ugliest duel of all (ugliest in terms of fun/efficiency), the paladin duel, could become a lot more comfortable with the Angelics and OW, instead of trying to dish out Physical damage to a high deff block char while hoping for the OW to get inflicted. I asked a lot of paladins I dueled have I inflicted OWs, how many times and such, and with 35% on both claws it was not really that great in practise. You might think that it is not needed cause it lasts 8 seconds, and you hit a lot and what not, but if the paladin gets OW every time he gets touched, resetting the timer of OW plus poison hanging there also, maybe it is the way.

I tried for the highest damage I could go for, gulli+gores for extra CB and OW but I still feel not comfortable enough (still better then without them). Now don't get me wrong, I win vs paladins, but after the duel I feel similar to the feeling when I kill a BvB with Widowmaker  aka "I just used 300+ arrows to win". Am I asking too much ? :)

Also if the barb switches his axe (which deals considerable bigger chunk of life when inflicted) for an OW axe (give feedback on this if true), it would be bad to presume that assa should not try to implement angelics and more OW for the price of everything else.


Hsarus boots + belt leave you with less diminishing returnes vs hdins (you can cut hl to aqchieve the 65 fcr because you dont relay on the pys output as main source of dmg)

for any setup vs hdin you will need 65 fcr at least and that limits you with only one angelics ring or you will have to use griffon/valky and that leave you with to little stats to wear dancers and the ar drops

i got no testing behind this because i never considered Hsarus boots + belt as an option tbh but i think this could work out
lmk

This post was edited by MoXeR on Mar 23 2012 08:11am
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Mar 23 2012 08:28am
Quote (MoXeR @ Mar 23 2012 02:04pm)
Hsarus boots + belt leave you with less diminishing returnes vs hdins (you can cut hl to aqchieve the 65 fcr because you dont relay on the pys output as main source of dmg)

for any setup vs hdin you will need 65 fcr at least and that limits you with only one angelics ring or you will have to use griffon/valky and that leave you with to little stats to wear dancers and the ar drops

i got no testing behind this because i never considered Hsarus boots + belt as an option tbh but i think its accurade


Yes, I said all that, but loss in AR from dancers is negligible to AR from full angelic set. I also agreed on 65FCR, and the only option was griffon/Valk really.
Hsarus gives too little AR compared to 2x Angelic rings and it would still lose the Highlords, I'm not sure if its better.
Angelic is of course worn as a full jewel set, 1 ring would be just crappy.

What do you say, the starting point of testing :
Trang+arach+griffon+angelic_jewelry+enigma+FHRboots+chaos suwayyah+
+ malice GT (wtffff)

65FCR/30FHR/10frame trap laying/100%OWmain,25%OWchaos/angelic AR level

Reason why malice is mentioned is cause Fury physical is crap anyways, especially without highlords, trap laying speed vs paladin is not the most important thing (unlike for other duels).
Fools have 9 trap laying speed, 50% OW and virtually no damage (especially if its 50%OW and without highlords). 50%OW is a big chunk of chance.
Malice also has some reduce defense shit :)
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Mar 23 2012 08:47am
I don't think you can win duels with only OW. Especially that you lose a lot of dmg and ar with griffon. Is 65 fcr really neccessary? You can't deal damage with mb, we just need it for swirlies.
Also, BoS vs hdin, and trap laying speed is not a problem anymore.

Still best to pack a real punch with high dmg claw. With angelics, visio circ and even non-fools claw you should have ~20k ar both sides, or something like that? With fools claw probably 30k fools+20k chaos side or so...

trangs + fhr/life belt(/OW? can OW craft spawn with 24 fhr?) + gores + angelics + high dmg claw + chaos suwayyah
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Mar 23 2012 09:22am
Quote (ikusus @ Mar 23 2012 02:47pm)
I don't think you can win duels with only OW. Especially that you lose a lot of dmg and ar with griffon. Is 65 fcr really neccessary? You can't deal damage with mb, we just need it for swirlies.
Also, BoS vs hdin, and trap laying speed is not a problem anymore.

Still best to pack a real punch with high dmg claw. With angelics, visio circ and even non-fools claw you should have ~20k ar both sides, or something like that? With fools claw probably 30k fools+20k chaos side or so...

trangs + fhr/life belt(/OW? can OW craft spawn with 24 fhr?) + gores + angelics + high dmg claw + chaos suwayyah


Well there is also Venom, mind blast and some chaos physical damage. 5k LIFE will drain in max 80 sec with OW, forgetting that you will do minimally 1-2k damage with other sources :) With griffon you will lose physical dmg (heck, it's not important vs max block max def char), but losing 500AR to get 10 000AR with angelics makes the "losing AR with griffon" a false statement. Same as with Dancer boots. Heck, by that logic you could say you lose AR with Raven and FCR ring also (so no one mentions that later)...

I don't know about 65FCR vs physical paladins, but vs hammer I got the experience it is a must. We are talking about good duels here, and a good hammer will abuse you having less then 65 FCR I'm sure. Teleport cast rate is also very important vs a hammer.
BoS I never used vs hammerdins so far, I liked slower moving when he name lock tele (WW slightly to the right, then back then bottom). With BoS it would remove my hitting opportunities, but I could be wrong !

Again you mention a high punch with high dmg claw yet you mention angelics. Try to calculate the life a paladin would lose with a highest possible claw. I don't think the numbers will stupify you, especially without highlords, and you have to remember you dont hit hammer as many times as other chars.

Again thanks for the feedback and do say if you think of something interesting.

edit. MB also kills OAK in 1 hit (cool thing)
edit#2. I've read the guide full, looks very nice. Just one info about :
•High Dmg Cruel *optional Warfist or suwayyah bases.
This claw isn’t really needed, but is useful in some instances. I use a 30ias 4xx ed eth warfist with light res mod vs necros and sins, while using burst of speed for max traps and nice frw. Also throw it on in ghost vs ghost duels, sometimes.
Note* not going to hit 9fpa traps, Warfist needs 25ias to hit 4 frame ww, suwayyah needs 15ias to hit 4frame ww.

How much trap laying speed will Suwayyah Chaos + War fist + BoS (level 20 cca) have vs a Necro Golem?



This post was edited by monSt4r on Mar 23 2012 09:48am
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Mar 23 2012 10:04am
Solid build (happy that someone finally mentioned a build with str bug), some things I disagree on but the four things I want to point out are:

1. You might want to list an angelics set-up (hsaurus' sucks, and this out-damages highlord's setup in a few situations). If you want to maintain str bug with angelics you will have to use a Fal Lidless on bo switch (unless you use ed/str jewels in a circlet).

2. I would argue that max mb>max venom/fade/extra weapon block. I know the difference between 17/20 doesn't seem massive in practice but the point is that the effect doesn't diminish, besides the difference is more significant than the tiny damage increase you get from 3 pts of venom or the extra % of block you gain, having the highest chance possible to swirly an opponent from 2 screens away is important because when the opponent is swirlied you have a vast increase in offensive options (which increases your damage output over time and reduces the amount of damage that you take).

3. Even if you dislike it you might want to list a 102 fcr set-up. Highlord's is an incredibly good amulet but sometimes I feel like people overrate raw damage in comparison to mobility for certain match-ups.

4. Could use a little more mana. :/

Quote (MoXeR @ 23 Mar 2012 12:20)
actually the stuffmod does have an impact
i tested it with hero editor using scs with mb
its not about the hardpoints but about total pt's


How did you test this? I went on sp with a base level 1 mb and a +99 mb claw and I had comparable results to a regular base level 1 mb build...

This post was edited by Tails chao on Mar 23 2012 10:07am
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Mar 23 2012 10:14am
Quote (Tails chao @ Mar 23 2012 04:04pm)
Solid build (happy that someone finally mentioned a build with str bug), some things I disagree on but the four things I want to point out are:

1. You might want to list an angelics set-up (hsaurus' sucks, and this out-damages highlord's setup in a few situations). If you want to maintain str bug with angelics you will have to use a Fal Lidless on bo switch (unless you use ed/str jewels in a circlet).

2. I would argue that max mb>max venom/fade/extra weapon block. I know the difference between 17/20 doesn't seem massive in practice but the point is that the effect doesn't diminish, besides the difference is more significant than the tiny damage increase you get from 3 pts of venom or the extra % of block you gain, having the highest chance possible to swirly an opponent from 2 screens away is important because when the opponent is swirlied you have a vast increase in offensive options (which increases your damage output over time and reduces the amount of damage that you take).

3. Even if you dislike it you might want to list a 102 fcr set-up. Highlord's is an incredibly good amulet but sometimes I feel like people overrate raw damage in comparison to mobility for certain match-ups.

4. Could use a little more mana. :/


How did you test this? I went on sp with a base level 1 mb and a +99 mb claw and I had comparable results to a regular base level 1 mb build...


Forgot to mention, I would sacrifice a lot of stats for 80+ mana on a ring !
Having bigger mana pool saves a lot of nerves.
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