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Jun 6 2018 06:29pm
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Jun 6 2018 08:14pm)
pas de filles débiles déportées dans ma famille.



Vous avez préféré les garder pour vous, p’tits vicieux? J’aurais fait pareil!
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Jun 6 2018 06:54pm
Quote (Chainsaw47 @ 7 Jun 2018 01:29)
Vous avez préféré les garder pour vous, p’tits vicieux? J’aurais fait pareil!


bon, ça me va comme réponse, je trouve ça pas mal, bravo.
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Jun 6 2018 07:04pm


The world took a vote. We're gonna give France to the Chinese.
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Jun 6 2018 10:30pm
Quote (zarkadon @ 5 Jun 2018 20:36)
Well it would be more like if the whole UK agrees on it, but regardless, we've been over that already... the history, culture, context, etc of Scottland and the UK are very different to that of Catalonia and the rest of Spain, so trying to make comparisons doesn't really work.

You can't compare Scotland to Catalonia to West Sahara to Kosovo to Kurdistan to Transnistria to Quebec to Northern Cyprus, just because these regions are involved in matters related to independence movements... they each have their unique and different contexts. It would be silly to back them all, or back none of them... you have to analyze each one of them separately, and avoid comparisons between them. I know it takes a lot more effort, but you can't simplify the complex matter of geopolitics... it's like trying to apply the German unification process to Korea... it won't work. You can't just apply the same logic all around the globe.


With a landslide backing in Catalonia too... far greater than the natioanal average.


ofc those cases are different in detail, and some even in their very nature - but that does not necessarily make analogies and comparisons invalid. that's but a lazy talking point. at least present us your 'catalonians are - despite their language, culture, history, national identity... - not unique enough to warrant even considering independence, so it's irrelevant that they don't have a realistic chance of self-determination' argument, because just suggesting it while at the same time accusing others of not putting in enough effort is kind of hypocritical.

the reality is, and that's what you guys constantly leave out while making that shallow '95% of them agreed, so it's totally fair and reasonable' point, that catalonia was economically and politically coerced to agree to the 1978 constitution because it was a vast improvement to the previous status. the dishonest and kind of sad part is that i know for a fact you're very well aware of that. some other people uncritically supporting the spanish side might be somewhat ignorant and uninformed, but you most definitely aren't - so please don't act like catalonians 40 years ago overwhelmingly (though with the 6th lowest turnout amongst the 17 regionsand significant irregularities concerning voter, both points conveniently ignored by your side) agreed to the constitution because they wanted to make sure they would never have a real chance to become an independent country.


so yes, if you just look at the independence issue (i'm not suggesting catalonians were or are overall screwed or unhappy with the constitution at all), spain managed to fineprint scam catalonians into agreeing to never be independent. however, and i already made that point multiple times, it's an outright lazy argument to say 'well, it's on a piece of paper, so if we want to uphold the rule of law and not descent into anarchy we must never change it.' if that were true we'd still live in feudal societies. it's really not difficult to see how the current state of affairs is very unsatisfying, not only for catalonians, but for everyone who values democracy and a people's right to choose their own destiny.
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Jun 7 2018 07:14am
Quote (fender @ 7 Jun 2018 06:30)
ofc those cases are different in detail, and some even in their very nature - but that does not necessarily make analogies and comparisons invalid. that's but a lazy talking point. at least present us your 'catalonians are - despite their language, culture, history, national identity... - not unique enough to warrant even considering independence, so it's irrelevant that they don't have a realistic chance of self-determination' argument, because just suggesting it while at the same time accusing others of not putting in enough effort is kind of hypocritical.

the reality is, and that's what you guys constantly leave out while making that shallow '95% of them agreed, so it's totally fair and reasonable' point, that catalonia was economically and politically coerced to agree to the 1978 constitution because it was a vast improvement to the previous status. the dishonest and kind of sad part is that i know for a fact you're very well aware of that. some other people uncritically supporting the spanish side might be somewhat ignorant and uninformed, but you most definitely aren't - so please don't act like catalonians 40 years ago overwhelmingly (though with the 6th lowest turnout amongst the 17 regionsand significant irregularities concerning voter, both points conveniently ignored by your side) agreed to the constitution because they wanted to make sure they would never have a real chance to become an independent country.


so yes, if you just look at the independence issue (i'm not suggesting catalonians were or are overall screwed or unhappy with the constitution at all), spain managed to fineprint scam catalonians into agreeing to never be independent. however, and i already made that point multiple times, it's an outright lazy argument to say 'well, it's on a piece of paper, so if we want to uphold the rule of law and not descent into anarchy we must never change it.' if that were true we'd still live in feudal societies. it's really not difficult to see how the current state of affairs is very unsatisfying, not only for catalonians, but for everyone who values democracy and a people's right to choose their own destiny.


Really? After dozens of posts about the subject, where I adress the history, laws, society, demographics, etc of Spain in general and Catalonia, you are going to say I'm lazy. Not wanting to repeat things like a parrot doesn't make me lazy. I'm ok with clearing things up if one of my comments wasn't understood, or talking about new and different aspects of the subject, but I'm not going to go over and over the same things every time they are mentioned. It isn't my job to post here about this.

The turnout in Catalonia was the 6th lowest out of the 17 regions, but it still was above average. And like I've said before, the boycott against the constitution was carried out mostly by HB and the spanish francoist far-right. The majority of people in Catalonia boycotting it were immigrants from other parts of Spain, that feared that the catalan government would be given too much power and discriminate them. Keep in mind that the catalan government had just been re-instated, under Josep Tarradelles (from the left-wing separatist party ERC), who had been the president of the catalan government in exile. Even though he had sent a message of fraternity, always talking about the "citizens of Catalonia" and not "catalans" to include the immigrants from the rest of Spain, there were still strong suspicions about him among the non-catalan speaking citizens living in the region.

I will also remind you that the right wing catalan nationalist party CiU was given one of the 7 seats in the group that created the Constitution, and that all articles had to be unanimously approved. If they had wanted independence, then they could have just refused to be part of the constitutional process and boycott the constitution, like the left-wing pro-ETA basque party HB did. The basques turned out fine, so don't act like there was some sort of threat or fear in order to make the catalans vote yes.
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Jun 7 2018 08:29am
In other Spanish news, the new ministers have taken over and so Pedro's new government is set to go. It's a pretty large government, with an unprecedented 18 members (including the president), and out of which two thirds of them are women. That combined with the fact that the new vice president, Carmen Calvo, will also be in charge of a the Ministry of Gender Equality (a new one, as this was until now a department of Health), has lead to the press labeling the government as a "feminist government".

It's definitely a progressive one, and it's pretty technocratic too... with one of Spain's most famous judges being put in charge of Justice, a former ISS astronaut in charge of Science and Innovation, etc. Pretty eco-friendly too, with a whole new Ministry of "Ecological Transition" which replaces the "Ministry of Energy and Tourism". In terms of economy, it's pretty big tent... some of the ministers are pretty left leaning, but there are many centrists too.

It seems like a good strategy, because when Rajoy was kicked out there were people that were fearing that Sánchez's government would be "kidnapped" by the left wing Podemos... even Podemos was demanding ministries for themselves, or at the very least a very left leaning government. So this government is aimed at giving the image that PSOE is a strong and independent party that doesn't concede to Podemos, while at the same time shutting up the people that feared this government would be surrendered to populists and separatists. It is also clearly aimed at trying to recover the centre-left voters that had left PSOE in favour of the centrist party C's, as elections will inevitably come soon due to the very weak position PSOE has in the parliament.
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Jun 7 2018 11:00am
Quote (zarkadon @ 7 Jun 2018 14:14)
Really? After dozens of posts about the subject, where I adress the history, laws, society, demographics, etc of Spain in general and Catalonia, you are going to say I'm lazy. Not wanting to repeat things like a parrot doesn't make me lazy. I'm ok with clearing things up if one of my comments wasn't understood, or talking about new and different aspects of the subject, but I'm not going to go over and over the same things every time they are mentioned. It isn't my job to post here about this.

The turnout in Catalonia was the 6th lowest out of the 17 regions, but it still was above average. And like I've said before, the boycott against the constitution was carried out mostly by HB and the spanish francoist far-right. The majority of people in Catalonia boycotting it were immigrants from other parts of Spain, that feared that the catalan government would be given too much power and discriminate them. Keep in mind that the catalan government had just been re-instated, under Josep Tarradelles (from the left-wing separatist party ERC), who had been the president of the catalan government in exile. Even though he had sent a message of fraternity, always talking about the "citizens of Catalonia" and not "catalans" to include the immigrants from the rest of Spain, there were still strong suspicions about him among the non-catalan speaking citizens living in the region.

I will also remind you that the right wing catalan nationalist party CiU was given one of the 7 seats in the group that created the Constitution, and that all articles had to be unanimously approved. If they had wanted independence, then they could have just refused to be part of the constitutional process and boycott the constitution, like the left-wing pro-ETA basque party HB did. The basques turned out fine, so don't act like there was some sort of threat or fear in order to make the catalans vote yes.


you're basically making my point for me here by further illustrating how big of an improvement it was to the previous status - BECAUSE it took power away from the crown, BECAUSE it was a step to more democracy. that's exactly why catalonians supported it so strongly - and when i said 'coerced' i was not implying 'threat or fear' of physical / military violence, but rather economic and political necessity. so acting now like catalonian leaders in 1978 deliberately wanted to make their independence impossible, and could have 'just refused' that part, is blatantly dishonest and wrong, ignoring all historical context - and context matters.

again, technically the catalonian leaders in charge back then made it virtually impossible for catalonia to be independent under an unamended constitution, no one is disputing that. what i'm saying is that this is not how constitutions should be set up in the first place (even though at the time it might have made some sense from the spanish perspective, given recent history and the desire for some kind of lasting unity, it's not like i'm not trying to see your side), but more importantly, that change should be possible without an 'immediate descent into anarchy and lawlessness', or whatever slippery slope fallacy you want to justify denying a people the opportunity to self-determine with.

why bother though, if you can just point at a document and say 'look, your fathers and grandfathers signed this, so screw you, we're just upholding the rule of law by beating you up and arresting your leaders on bogus charges'...

This post was edited by fender on Jun 7 2018 11:02am
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Jun 7 2018 11:40am
https://v.redd.it/l2msebt647211

Our PM made the frontpage of reddit because he cleaned up a puddle :rofl:

This post was edited by balrog66 on Jun 7 2018 11:41am
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Jun 7 2018 11:51am
Quote (balrog66 @ Jun 7 2018 11:40am)
https://v.redd.it/l2msebt647211

Our PM made the frontpage of reddit because he cleaned up a puddle :rofl:


jesus christ that coffee is whiter than Fender's family tree. Think he order two scoops of coffee with his cream?
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Jun 7 2018 11:54am
Quote (thesnipa @ Jun 7 2018 05:51pm)
jesus christ that coffee is whiter than Fender's family tree. Think he order two scoops of coffee with his cream?


He's been single for as long as we know him and he's 51 years old. His homosexuality is an open secret.

I don't like the politics of the guy, but he has the exact amount of charisma and charm that a Dutch PM needs to be popular and still be liked.
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