Quote (zarkadon @ 16 Mar 2017 13:36)
Well, you said it yourself, Turkey would be a great example. Israel isn't exactly fantastic either, and Saudi Arabia is easily the worst. And there have been many examples of NATO-sponsored dictatorships in Africa and the Middle East that have been far worse than Russia.
Yes, Russia is a bigger threat, but that doesn't make it more "evil" than Turkey. It's just a bigger threat because it's more powerful and has greater influence. The US is a greater threat to the world than Venezuela, simply because it is much harder to stop if it goes down a crooked path, but I think we can all agree that Venezuela is much worse place.
You are judging Russia by western moral standards. I agree with you there is a lot of bs involving their democracy and freedom of speech, but don't forget that Russia has never known true democracy. They were first under an absolute monarchy, then under a ruthless communist dictatorship, and after that under a corrupt mess that never achieved a complete democracy. Government transparency is simply not a priority for russians, because they have a differen culture and history. Should the west defend its values against this way of thinking? Absolutely, but not by telling Russia what to do.
And using Ukraine to bash on Russia is just wrong, because imo that's probably the biggest issue where the EU and US fucked up. We supported a coup against a legitimate government when internationally observed elections were just 6 months away, and yet we claim that Russia are the anti-democratic ones here... I don't think Russia handled the matter perfectly either, but imo they aren't the ones to blame of the mess that happened (this time). In any case this just come downs to geopolitical and economical interests of two sides with Ukraine in between. Both of them are just fighting for their power on Natural Gas resources and Ukraine is just in between of this bs.
at some point you'll have to decide. are they NOT WORSE than "our side"? or do you want to make excuses for WHY they are worse? like that they just don't know how to democracy. putin only had the constitution amended in his favour and makes political opposition disappear because he just doesn't know any better, poor guy just has it in his blood...
also, when you said "our side", i assumed you meant nato (of which neither israel nor saudi arabia are members). when i talked about our approach towards russia, about speaking out united against them, i obviously did not have any african dictatorships in mind to apply economic pressure towards russia...
(i already elaborated on turkey and it's pretty clear we think similarly about their disgusting dictator erdogan and the current development there - as does the rest of the world. the difference is that i don't see any right wing sympathy for him and appeals to ignore the shit he does because we assume that's the only way to have good relations with turkey.)
but sure, i already said it. there ARE countries that are DOMESTICALLY worse than russia, no doubt. if that is the standard you want to judge them by, if those are the countries you associate with just to be right about russia not being worse than "our side", go ahead...
lastly, about ukraine you're doing the same thing ampoo does - yes, WE contributed to a messy situation there and made some poor and undemocratic decisions. i already said no side is "innocent", that's obviously not how international politics work - but militarily invading and annexing parts of a sovereign nation is a bit different, don't you think?
it's a bit like trying to justify a murder by saying "well, he fucked his ex - so we can't really blame (or "bash") him for killing him"...
Quote (ampoo @ 16 Mar 2017 12:09)
well, the other points you mentioned, freedom of press and so on
obviously is doesnt get as bad as russia, but i wouldnt be pointing fingers being from a country where voicing your opinion nowadays can result in ultra left fascists (or increasingly right wing extremists) threatening you, violently attacking you and your property, public "execution" in the press, the full program
you know, sweep your own entry door first
nothing "justified" russia going into ukraine and i didnt say that, but western sponsored, violent regime change and them attacking eastern ukraine citizens for not being cool with it led to this whole mess
there are plenty of other powers bombing and killing in syria, turkey, the us, and france come to mind :rolleyes:
on the last point i actually tried to avoid an evaluation here, assad is the official leader and he requested help, while everyone else is violating the sovereignty of syria
assad has not always been putins puppet and his planned overthrow has begun long before russian troops have ever set foot in syria, western regime change has backfired AGAIN
by the way, it has become awfully quiet in our media about aleppo after assads victory, i wonder why.....
you have the unfortunate tendency to overlook significant parts you can't make an excuse for. i did not ask for nations that have been militarily active in some capacity in syria, i specifically asked for forces that also systematically and indiscriminately bombed civilian infrastructure and targets to kill assad's political opposition like russia did in their offensives. i think we should make a distinction between doing that and fighting ISIS (which obviously NEVER is a clean and surgical military operation and brings a lot of civilian death and suffering with it, much more than one could possibly justify considering how the west contributed to its rise in the first place), don't you agree?
also, don't start that shitty old "well, i didn't specifically SAY this" game with me. no, you did not SAY "our" actions justified russia's invasion of the krim but you most certainly IMPLIED it by labeling it a "reaction" to "aggressive nato policy".
also, calling the arab spring and an organic opposition that originated from a people's longing for more freedom and democracy that has been bombed to ashed another "western regime change that backfired" just shows me how informed and honest you're being about syria and russia's / assad's role there...