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#31
Oct 21 2014 05:29am
Don't forget the very profitable aspect of the status-quo

the close to 2.5 million dollars that the nation's law enforcement agencies make with the Civil asset forfeiture laws.


I think that the OP is on the right track, if we step back and ask ourselves what we are using the penal system for, what is it's ultimate purpose?
of course in the case of the repeat felons and the violent offenders we want to keep them off the streets.

but the non-violent offenders, the mentally ill who are basically being imprisoned for want of any other facilities, and the drug users.

it's the 2 R's revenge or rehabilitation, if we just imprison these people just to "clean up" the streets,or because they did something that we find wrong, without rehabilitation then the cycle will not have been broken.
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#32
Oct 21 2014 05:32am
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Oct 21 2014 06:29am)
Don't forget the very profitable aspect of the status-quo

the  close to 2.5 million dollars that the nation's law enforcement agencies make with the Civil asset forfeiture laws.


I think that the OP is on the right track, if we step back and ask ourselves what we are using the penal system for, what is it's ultimate purpose?
of course in the case of the repeat felons and the violent offenders we want to keep them off the streets.

but the non-violent offenders, the mentally ill who are basically being imprisoned for want of any other facilities, and the drug users.

it's the 2 R's revenge or rehabilitation, if we just imprison these people just to "clean up" the streets,or because they did something that we find wrong, without rehabilitation then the cycle will not have been broken.


2.5 million is pennies on a federal level. Who directly profits from the drug war?
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#33
Oct 21 2014 07:41am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Oct 21 2014 05:31am)
...I bet Indonesia's policy works even more remarkably well  :rolleyes:


Where exactly are you going with their ineffective and overly harsh war on drugs?

Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Oct 21 2014 05:45am)
...this makes absolutely no sense . The war on drugs is prosecuted by the government at great financial expense .


And who is making this money? Police unions and their swollen ranks, prisons, the courts, DA offices, arms and munitions manufacturers, body armor manufacturers, military hardware manufacturers, etc.

Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Oct 21 2014 06:27am)
...electabilty is what drives policy . Politicians who would support the legalization of drugs like heroin , crack , powder cocaine etc... would be committing political suicide .


Legalization =/= decriminalization.

Quote (IceMage @ Oct 21 2014 06:32am)
2.5 million is pennies on a federal level.  Who directly profits from the drug war?


He meant $2.5 Billion with a B. And in over 80% of those cases, there was never an indictment handed down, much less a conviction. It is legalized theft.
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#34
Oct 21 2014 07:49am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2014 09:41am)




Legalization =/= decriminalization.



...splitting hairs =/= invalidation

...the American people are NOT going to elect politicians who call for the decriminalization of hard drugs . It is not even part of the current political discussion .

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#35
Oct 21 2014 07:56am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Oct 21 2014 08:49am)
...splitting hairs =/= invalidation

...the American people are NOT going to elect politicians who call for the decriminalization of hard drugs . It is not even part of the current political discussion .


...and yet here we are having it.



ITT: strange bedfellows on both sides.
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#36
Oct 21 2014 07:58am
Quote (IceMage @ 21 Oct 2014 06:32)
2.5 million is pennies on a federal level.  Who directly profits from the drug war?



yeah I did mean billion..and it's like the damned sheriff of Nottingham "how much money are you carrying?....mmmm must be drug money!! :drool: "
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#37
Oct 21 2014 08:02am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2014 09:56am)
...and yet here we are having it.



ITT: strange bedfellows on both sides.


..." we " might be on a political discussion forum but PaRD is not relevant to the national discourse ;)
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#38
Oct 21 2014 08:33am
Quote (Skinned @ Oct 21 2014 07:24am)
Are for-profit prisons the companies you're talking about?  I agree that they are a moral blight as well.  Unless you mean something different.

Hard drug use much of the time leads to severe mental illness and very early cognitive declines.  The rehab thing will only work if we have some universal health care.  Drug problems come with mental problems and health problems.  There is a lot of comorbidity.

How many people who want to end the drug war are willing to accept some form of universalized health care?  Probably very few.  Plus there is the inherent criminality of being a junkie....many drug addicted inmates aren't just incarcerated for drug charges.

I mean the anti-drug war crowd can keep pointing to the model of nations that are less populous than some of our cities because that is a good tactic (drugs --> Portugal, guns --> Switzerland), but that distracts from the conversation as much as it adds to it. Those places have universal health care as well, which has a lot to do with why their guns are used in crimes like ours (no permanent urban underclass).

I agree our situation with drug policy is a mess, but responses are becoming more tailored.  I don't know if you've ever heard about drug court, but it is a lot different than regular court...you're more likely to be working with social workers than lawyers there.  It is a step in the right direction.  But we can't castrate our law enforcement system because they're necessary to deal with this.


650 thousand , or 42 percent off all arrests in the war on drugs was for simple marijuana possession .

People who have hurt no one , committed no real offence that you can point to.

I will agree that if a junkie is breaking into homes to pay for their habit you need some stronger tactics ... But putting people in jail or prison for simply using drugs ... Even the hard ones ... Is ludicrous and a complete waste of time and money. There are far better and more effective ways of dealing with that social problem ... And as for the Portugal is a different climate ... Im sure people said it wouldn't work there until it was tried ... The truth is we have no way of foreseeing if something like that would help .... But we know from trial and error ( bad pun ) that the current model doesn't work.

As for the electoral issue.... I agree that media and the court of social opinion would crucify anyone who tried to fix this problem by legalizing .... I'd be interested to see if public opinion would be for or against a different approach to helping drug users . But either way ... I thought the USA was designed as a country that valued personal freedoms and liberties more than the court of public opinion and popularity ... When something causes no hurt to other individuals , businesses the government and impacts in no way the life liberty or freedoms of other people ... How is it reasonable to imprison them ?
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#39
Oct 21 2014 08:49am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Oct 21 2014 09:02am)
..." we " might be on a political discussion forum but PaRD is not relevant to the national discourse  ;)


Maybe I'm the only one who noticed states' legalization of marijuana. Of course it's not all drugs, but it's where the trend is going.
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#40
Oct 21 2014 09:00am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2014 10:49am)
Maybe I'm the only one who noticed states' legalization of marijuana. Of course it's not all drugs, but it's where the trend is going.


...I have noticed no trend toward even a hint of discussion about hard drugs being decriminalized . I imagine some Libertarians somewhere are bringing it up in the dimly lit backroom of a rundown Elks Lodge enveloped in a dank haze of marijuana smoke , empty Pabst Blue Ribbon bottles and faded Ron Paul posters but that does not constitute a trend :lol:
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