d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Personhood For Chimp?
Prev123410Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Views: 2017Replies: 94Track Topic
Member
Posts: 40,833
Joined: Sep 17 2011
Gold: 0.00
#11
Oct 13 2014 05:04pm
Personhood is a bit much I think. It messes with so many other laws.
Member
Posts: 48,261
Joined: Aug 1 2008
Gold: 1,819.09
#12
Oct 13 2014 05:04pm
Quote (hATemOnkEy @ Oct 13 2014 06:50pm)
Well, it depends on how far you want to extend rights to non-human persons.

I'd argue against them being able to open up a bankaccount or own property (for instance), but I'd say that giving them the right to not suffer isn't excessive.


Well don't they already have that right under animal cruelty laws?

I certainly don't support any efforts to prevent scientific trials on animals. There's some pretty intelligent animals out there (primates, then my examples of dolphins and Corvids) that clearly are self aware and not driven just by raw instinct, but they're also clearly not what we are.
Member
Posts: 28,450
Joined: Apr 2 2007
Gold: 678.00
#13
Oct 13 2014 05:05pm
Quote (duffman316 @ 14 Oct 2014 00:59)
these morals could get in the way of technological progress though

think of the space program

you wouldn't test space flight on a human before testing it on animals





No, but the use of humans would be justifiable if the research is vital enough for human progress/wellbeing. Therefore the use of non-humans would be permissible (according to Singer).

Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ 14 Oct 2014 00:52)
...I have no problem with modern zoos that provide decent habitats and breeding programs for the animals they possess but caging should never be allowed and I will go so far as to say I object to any animal act larger than a flea circus . As for supporting personhood for non-human species , no .


Not even if you'd have degrees of personhood?

Member
Posts: 40,833
Joined: Sep 17 2011
Gold: 0.00
#14
Oct 13 2014 05:07pm
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ 13 Oct 2014 22:52)
...I have no problem with modern zoos that provide decent habitats and breeding programs for the animals they possess but caging should never be allowed and I will go so far as to say I object to any animal act larger than a flea circus . As for supporting personhood for non-human species , no .


Caging is not allowed but zoos are ok? I think you have a different definition of 'caging' than most people.
Member
Posts: 28,450
Joined: Apr 2 2007
Gold: 678.00
#15
Oct 13 2014 05:08pm
Quote (Caedus @ 14 Oct 2014 01:04)
Well don't they already have that right under animal cruelty laws?

I certainly don't support any efforts to prevent scientific trials on animals. There's some pretty intelligent animals out there (primates, then my examples of dolphins and Corvids) that clearly are self aware and not driven just by raw instinct, but they're also clearly not what we are.


Perhaps. Still, it's apparantly legal to put a healthy chimpanzee in solitary confinement without any scientific merit.

I'm all for scientific research. But some stricter laws for the use of laboratory animals wouldn't be bad, imo.

Member
Posts: 48,563
Joined: Jun 18 2006
Gold: 5,016.77
#16
Oct 13 2014 05:13pm
Quote (hATemOnkEy @ Oct 13 2014 06:01pm)
Humans suffer and die every day. I'd like to think that we're in agreement that lessening that suffering would be a good thing.
Why not for non-human animals? If it is possible and viable to reduce suffering, is it not morally mandatory to do so?

Also, I've been a vegetarian for ~17 years now (as a response to the second part of your post). But lets not make this a thread about vegetarianism.


No, I don't believe it is. I feel that humans have dominion over animals for a reason, and their suffering, if it benefits humanity, is morally okay.

Honestly, even though our moral nature extends to animals, I feel that it is false in a way. I can develop closeness with an animal, but if I'm hungry enough, I won't hesitate to kill it and fry it up.

That might spur an argument about cannibalism. I guess we're always battling between our moral nature and our animal nature.

This post was edited by IceMage on Oct 13 2014 05:16pm
Member
Posts: 96,125
Joined: Mar 15 2007
Gold: 7,252.72
#17
Oct 13 2014 05:15pm
Quote (hATemOnkEy @ Oct 13 2014 07:05pm)




Not even if you'd have degrees of personhood?


...different degrees of allowable treatment for animals based on factors including intelligence yes , degrees of personhood no . What if we had different degrees of personhood for actual persons ? ( you can see where I'm going with this )

Member
Posts: 28,450
Joined: Apr 2 2007
Gold: 678.00
#18
Oct 13 2014 05:16pm
Quote (IceMage @ 14 Oct 2014 01:13)
No, I don't believe it is.  I feel that humans have dominion over animals for a reason, and their suffering, if it benefits humanity, is morally okay.


Another subject in which we are diametrically opposed, it seems.

Quote (IceMage @ 14 Oct 2014 01:13)
Honestly, even though our moral nature extends to animals, I feel that it is false in a way.  I can develop closeness with an animal, but if I'm hungry enough, I won't hesitate to kill it and fry it up.


Well, if I'm hungry enough, I won't hesitate to kill and eat you either, I think.
You're still a person to me though <3

Quote (IceMage @ 14 Oct 2014 01:13)
That might spur an argument about cannibalism.  I guess we're always battling between our moral nature and our animal nature.


Inb4'd me like a boss.

This post was edited by hATemOnkEy on Oct 13 2014 05:18pm
Member
Posts: 51,928
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,933.00
#19
Oct 13 2014 05:17pm
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Oct 13 2014 05:52pm)
...I have no problem with modern zoos that provide decent habitats and breeding programs for the animals they possess but caging should never be allowed and I will go so far as to say I object to any animal act larger than a flea circus . As for supporting personhood for non-human species , no .


This.

And there's zero chance I'd ever support personhood for non-humans until all humans have it. Then maybe we can have a discussion.
Member
Posts: 48,563
Joined: Jun 18 2006
Gold: 5,016.77
#20
Oct 13 2014 05:18pm
Quote (Santara @ Oct 13 2014 06:17pm)
This.

And there's zero chance I'd ever support personhood for non-humans until all humans have it. Then maybe we can have a discussion.


:thumbsup:
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev123410Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll

© 2003-2024 d2jsp  Contact