This is something non-believers can't really understand. Christian's are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but living an immoral life definitely separates you from God. It's almost not bearable. You either lose your faith or you start acting morally.

Good thread.

Do you accept evolution or do you believe in creation/intelligent design?



Care to elaborate?

This post was edited by dark-soul on Jun 25 2014 06:19pm

ya it's a huge debate in churches. can you lose your salvation? It's almost commonly agreed that one you are a Christian you can't. But we aren't in heaven yet, there isn't a prefect connection to God on this side of life. acting morally is a desire to a Christian because they have seen how empty immorality is and how much better God is. let's pretend a new Christian is like a peice of brass. It's dented, dirty and not able to reflect much of anything. During our life God works with us to clean up the brass and ding out the dents so we can better reflect God. When we sin it's like dinging the brass. sinning doesn't cause us to lose salvation but it does make us harder to reflect God.

to the best of my information the majority (just) of christians do acknowledge the concept of mortal sins, so would have to disagree with you on that
where in the bible does it say that you cannot lose your salvation once you are a christian?

evolution vs creation/id
personally I don't care. I know whichever it is that God had to do it. Looking at the complexities of biology, It's hard to believe it's all random.

the elaboration. .
Well personally I've gotten out of addiction after much prayer and accountability. .. but I know some people don't consider that as proof. I had a dislocated shoulder that Hurt for 2 years and has poor range of motion. I had it prayed for and it was healed in a week.

But hey if that isn't enough I have been to a few different trips and have seen people healed instantly. People not walking for 10 years walking again. People death being able to hear again. etc. so to me it is harder to believe there isn't a God then there is one.

[QUOTE=brmv,Jun 26 2014 03:52am]to the best of my information the majority (just) of christians do acknowledge the concept of mortal sins, so would have to disagree with you on that
where in the bible does it say that you cannot lose your salvation once you are...

I know what you are saying. I know that the Catholic Church stands that mortal sins causes you to lose salvation. I think there is more evidence in the Bible showing you can't lose it then you can. So personally I don't think you can because Jesus's death is strong enough to forgive all sins. Could I be wrong? Yes. But I won't be toeing that line close enough to be worried personally. If you are asking God can I do this sin and still be saved then you are asking the wrong question, you should be asking how can I get more pure so I can't know God better.

Reading through Romans 5 the terms of forgiveness are permanent
. Your name is written in the book of life, is it going to be scratched out? I think the only thing you can do to condemn yourself is rejecting the Holy spirit.

This post was edited by wofire on Jun 26 2014 03:15am

follow up to your answer
come good with

What you can expect from me?
-A timely response with verses to support beliefs and background if needed of why I support the verses

your response has been timely but did not provide any justification of what you said previously

also, there are lots of arguments against 'healings' including from very christian groups: http://www.bible.ca/tongues-benny-hinn-ministries-fake-fraud-miracles-healing-prayer.htm

thank you for your edit



but that raises the question what does it mean to reject the holy spirit, wouldn't committing a 'mortal sin' imply that rejection?

since i guess that whatever you would come up with would run into a cyclical debate which you do not want, let's leave it at this
just let me end my comment with my personal observation that

those denominations which pick and chose from the scripture whatever is needed to abrogate any personal responsibility represent the dark side within the universe of christianity

a mortal sin is a sin you don't repent, not cant repent, but dont, that is to say you died from it before you had a chance to, or you have refused to repent for it your entire life.

your essentially asking, if you choose to reject god and never repent for a sin, dosnt that imply you've rejected god and have chosen to never repent for that sin?


or, if you choose to reject god and sin, and that sin kills you before you have a chance to repent, dosnt that mean you rejected god and never had the chance to repent before you died?

or in a simplier form, if you choose to eat pie, dosnt that mean you've choosen to eat pie?

This post was edited by Ylem122 on Jun 26 2014 04:02am

ok here we go...
My belief: Once prayed always prayed does not give you salvation. Once saved always Saved does. I don't think saying the words of a prayer is going to save you, but an honest commitment of repenting(turning away) from your sins.
I will present both sides...some of the bigger verses pointed out
1st) I want to point out the biggest verse that says you can.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Hebrews 6:46 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Revelations 3:16 -So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

So Hebrews is full of places that seem to show that salvation can be lost by those have had "tasted the heavenly gift" but sin. So what are the heavenly gifts? In this time period prophecy, healing, miracles were common place among the church. Acts 2: 42-47:..43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. So we ask can you see miracles without being saved...yes! Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Here is the author of Hebrew speaking to those among the practicing Christians...If you read the rest of Hebrews we see that he is writing to a group that is trying to go back to works save you. Basically in 6:46 he is asking...do you want to combine good works and Jesus's death. There are plenty of essays out there concerning that verse.

So now why would someone sin after choosing if they have received salvation? Here i point to the story of the seeds.

Mat 13:3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

Obviously the last guy is the guy who is saved. I see those in Hebrews as the 2nd and 3rd. The 2nd is the one who initially got excited showing they kind of understand that gospel, but they never got the deep understand and fell away. The one among the thorns is choked up by things of this world...sin/objects etc. Are they saved? I believe not and I don't think they ever were.

So where does this leave us: Looking at these verses I strongly believe if someone has fully accepted Jesus, then they are saved eternally. How do we know the difference between those who fully get it and those who don't? I don't know.

So now lets look at verses that I think point to eternal salvation....

Romans 8:14-16 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, "Abba, Father."For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children.

These are people who are lead to salvation. These spirit of sonship....These are people who get it. Now read vs 16....Our spirit is joined with His. Joined/tied together. This is like taking welding tool and fusing to plates together, they become one.
THE VERY IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT ADOPTION! When you adopt a child, you cannot disown them ever. You sign a document that said you will stick it out. God cannot disown his adopted.

Lets now look at Peter: The original pope right? Did he lose his salvation when he denied Jesus the first time. What about the 2nd? What about the 3rd? Peter denied Christ under very strenious torture...he rejected when asked by girls he didn't know. If there is a time that you should lose salvation due to rejection...it should be Peter. This guy lived and walked with God, he saw and did the miracles. He took of communion. He did it all....so did he lose his salvation? Surely not!

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Salvation is something we can have assurance of. When we approach the throne of God, we do not need to approach as servants but as Sons. We shouldn't ever approach God questioning whether one of our Mortal sins haven't been confessed.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Can we lose that deposit in our self? No! We are marked with a seal. There is the term "paid in full". It is an old stamp placed on to papers meaning that the debt was completed. That is what is stamped on our condemnation papers, "Paid in full". "When you believe...he is a gurantee." We have a gurantee of salvation.

But maybe the holy spirit leaves after we sin?

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

IF the Spirit left us when we sinned, then the spirit would not be grieved! he would just pack his bags and leave. Since rage is the same as murder in God's eyes, then this verse can say do not greave the Spirit with murder.



Hope that is thorough enough. Like I said I cannot "prove" it one way or another, but reading over the Bible as a whole I believe it strongly points to the guarantee of salvation to believers.