I did not. I said that the steel industry had been moving out of Europe. Of course already existing factories were not shut down, but most of the investment or new production capacities were going out of Europe. My point about these industries playing a lesser and lesser role for Europe's economy is also unambiguously correct.


Wrong and wrong. You showed two misleading graphs, one which concealed the longer-term downward trend in European steel production which goes back to 2010 and also 2006, whichever starting point you want, and the other showing some irrelevant projections.





This is only detrimental to Russia's interests if Russia's primary concern was selling gas again - something they could have done all the time these past few months, but chose not to out of their own volition. Even now, they could sell more gas to Europe via the landbased pipelines. So far, Poland and Ukraine have bitched and moaned about the pipeline gas, but have in the end always been happy to pass it on and collect the transit fee.

However, if Russia's primary concern is with winning this war and achieving its geostrategic goals, then creating strife and disagreement within the Western coalition is helpful. If a German government which was (hypothetically) forced to change its stance by a revolting public wanted to resume gas trade with Russia in return for a lifting of sanctions and German arms sales to Ukraine, and their own allies in Poland and Ukraine cut it off, it would exacerbate the conflict in the coalition and add further fuel to anti-America and anti-NATO sentiments in Germany. How exactly is that a bad scenario for Russia?

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 1 2022 05:49pm

In 2 years Black xistenz : naked, no gas, no oil, no food and no dignity
Also black xistenz in 2 years : only russia lost something during this war, thanks ursula for the sanctions

bolded

1) which is exactly why they don't need to blow them up, they control the flow. BTW they already threatened to shut down the remaining pipes. According to your logic they would blow up those remaining ones just to show us they can which makes no sense.

2) You're moving the goalposts. You were talking about having the capability

If you want to push the narrative that Russia did it, at least come up with something better than this garbage.

A false flag operation giving them reason to strike back at Western infrastructure at a later time at least sounds plausible but still means they've blown up their cash cows.

They can't realistically blow up the land-based pipelines without leaving evidence for their culpability. Furthermore, there are no land-based pipelines between European nations that Russia could feasibly attack without triggering a war with NATO, while it is feasible to blow up intra-European undersea pipelines without giving NATO enough evidence to enter the war.

The whole point is that Russia did not get sufficient leverage out of the Nord Stream pipelines and their control of the gas flows. They shut it down entirely and still couldn't get Europe to budge. So how could they get even more leverage out of the pile of (economically) dead metal on the ground of the sea?



No, I did not?! Pages ago, I already clarified that Russia of course has the capability to blow them up with torpedos and the crux here was always the capability to blow them up without activating article 5.



Once again, since you seem unable to grasp this: the Nord Stream pipelines were no longer cash cows for Russia, it was highly unlikely they would go into operation again anytime soon, and it was Russia itself which decided to shut them down in the first place. Germany would to this day be happy to receive gas through Nord Stream 1, it was Russia who refused, not the other way round.


----------------------------



1.: I never claimed that this war and the sanctions don't hurt us. In fact, I was against energy embargos and many other aspects of the economic sanctions since the get go. I am, however, not blind to the path dependency aspect of this economic war. If Europe gave in now and offered to drop sanctions or stop supporting Ukraine in favor of a resumption of Russian energy supplies, Putin would know that he has us by the balls and tear us a new one.

Going for anything but very narrowly targetted sanctions on key technology was a mistake, but caving now would nonetheless make things worse. Our fucking moronic leaders set us on a suboptimal path, but now that we're on this path, going through with it is still the best option. Negotiating a lifting of the sanctions only makes sense when Putin's back is against the wall, either because he militarly lost the war and is threatened with being overrun in Ukraine, or because his country's economy can't take it anymore.

2.: Melodramatic much? It's extremely unlikely that this kind of fear porn becomes reality. And even if shit really hits the fan in this fashion, I will still be fine since I'm educated and affluent enough to be able to move to other countries or even continents whenever I want.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 2 2022 10:22pm

are they mostly shut down or cash cows.. ? that would be the first one.
And you think its beyond a possibility that your idol would need a propaganda topic for the thousands of "soldiers" leaving for other countries?
AND a reason to attack other infrastructure in a "defensive measure"
meanwhile sleepy joe send thousands of Jewish costumes to hide the ever growing Ukrainian Jew Nazi from celebrating Rosh Hashana
Good thing we have master Putin to sniff out the great Nazi threat
https://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2022/09/28/1125408048/rosh-hashanah-ukraine-jewish-pilgrims

Once again, we're not talking about the deep sea here. As a matter of fact it's shallow hence it doesn't take a special ability to target these pipelines. I didn't mention torpedoes or anything like that, I mentioned divers. An explosive device on a timer is all they need.

Believe what your government tells you to believe but if you think logically this explanation is far fetched at best. I'm def not buying it.





I already stated that a false flag is plausible, dumb dumb

And my idol? You're even dumber than I figured. What's next, I'm kgb?

This post was edited by Djunior on Oct 3 2022 02:00am

The leakage from Nord Stream 2 was supposed to stop during Sunday. Now the Coast Guard announces that gas emissions from one of the leaks are increasing again.

"The Coast Guard currently has no explanation," the authority writes on its website.

https://www.kustbevakningen.se/en/more-news/the-gas-leaks-in-the-baltics---update-monday/

Have you watched this ?

A central factor is to determine whether the explosions were inside the pipelines or outside of 'em.

Because Russia and only Russia can explode the pipelines from their inside.

Pipeline technology design enables Russia only to explode the pipeline from the inside in a radical emergency circumstance. It's a final backstop when all else fails in an emergency situation.

Also and only from the Russian gas entry point Russia does normal routine "pigging" by a machine called a "pig" that moves through the pipeline to clean and adjust controls inside; clean out silt and so on. Bombs could be attached to the "pig" at its entry point in Russia and left inside to explode by a timer or remote control.

It's still problematical to say repair machines or divers could smuggle bombs onto their ship then down to inside the pipeline to deposit and be exploded later. This notion is believed to be nigh impossible due to security and which also would need to allow that security could be compromised (possible).

Then there's the external factor that the pipeline sections are constructed and joined so that a 2 ton explosion 12 meters away would cause no leaking. Damage yes, leaking no. This factual factor would kill dead any theories that 500 pound bombs dispersed at points along the pipelines caused the rupture in the pipelines that leaked the methane gas vapors.

Which makes Putin guilty as sin.