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Belarathon
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Jun 22 2022 07:45pm
Quote (LaughingSkull @ 15 Jun 2022 02:21)
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^ yeeeesssss, now it all makes sense now!!

This is it!!!

This is why reiterative discussion that continues to question and question and question is so important!!!

--

You see, we theorized a lot in the previous pages, and at each step that we found something new that potentially solved the issue, we always thought that we had figured it out completely.

BUT THEN some new piece of info or investigative breakthrough revealed itself only to show that we don't yet have the complete picture.

And now, finally, after several such steps, we have achieved it!!!


GOOD JOB EVERYONE !!! :)

-



More like good job Joey for correcting everyone else and providing the entire answer :wacko:
LaughingSkull
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Jun 23 2022 09:04pm
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Quote (Belarathon @ Jun 23 2022 04:45am)
More like good job Joey for correcting everyone else and providing the entire answer :wacko:


-

Except that... he didn't.

Did you just miss my latest, long post on the previous page?

I proved 's theory WRONG, and came up with an alternative one:


Quote (LaughingSkull @ Jun 23 2022 04:32am)
...

SO WHAT IS GOING ON HERE, THEN ???

Well, here is my latest theory:

Cold Mastery in pre-LoD D2 works neither as a percentage-reduction, nor as pure arithmetic subtraction...

Rather, it works by either removing the monster's ENTIRE resistance altogether, or not removing it at all!!!

* Grotesques have 40% Cold Resistances.

* Up until level 3, Cold Mastery's "percentage reduction" progression is thus: 23, 34, 42.

* The first two levels, despite already offering a significant "reduction", however, don't really affect the strength of your Cold Spells' performance against the Creature at all !!!

* Level 3, however, is the first one that "reduces resistance" by more than 40, namely 42....

* ...which leads to the Grotesque's ENTIRE resistance getting removed, and leaving her with 0.

* Thus, FINALLY, your Glacial Spike's damage actually benefits from the "bonuses" given by the passive skill's "resistance reduction"

---

VERDICT:

Cold Mastery DOES work, but in the most unexpected way possible.


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Well, actually:


Quote (LaughingSkull @ Jun 23 2022 04:32am)
P.S. Will require a bunch of more tests, for which I shall need a CM with a resistance reduction value of 60 or greater. Will report back once I've reached it.



After a bunch of more testing, THIS THEORY IS PROVED WRONG TOO !!!

I leveled CM to lvl 7 (4 base + 3 bonus), which brought it to "63 percent" according to tooltip.

I went to town on Nightmare RADAMENT, who has 60 Cold Resistance.

Well, guess what? He is EXACTLY as tough to take down as he was when I first fought him at about level 31 or so !!!

Back then I had the same level of Glacial Spike, and only level 3 Cold Mastery, compared to NOW when I have LEVEL 7 CM !!!.


Welp... BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD !!! :)

-

This post was edited by LaughingSkull on Jun 23 2022 09:09pm
Belarathon
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Jun 23 2022 09:08pm
Quote (LaughingSkull @ 23 Jun 2022 23:04)
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-

Except that... he didn't.

Did you just miss my latest, long post on the previous page?

I proved ^-joey- 's theory WRONG, and came up with an alternative one:





Well, actually:





After a bunch of more testing, THIS THEORY IS PROVED WRONG TOO !!!

I leveled CM to lvl 7 (4 base + 3 bonus), which brought it to "63 percent" according to tooltip.

I went to town on Nightmare RADAMENT, who has 60 Cold Resistance.

Well, guess what? He is EXACTLY as tough to take down as he was when I first fought him at about level 31 or so.
Back then I had the same level of Glacial Spike, and only level 3 Cold Mastery, compared to NOW when I have LEVEL 7.


BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD !!! :)

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better just go back to what joey said imo, guy knows what he is talking about
LaughingSkull
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Jun 23 2022 09:11pm
Quote (Belarathon @ Jun 24 2022 06:08am)
better just go back to what joey said imo, guy knows what he is talking about


Better read my last post on the previous page where I exhaustively prove that his theory pertaining to CM is incorrect.

I'm not fighting neither you nor him. Could be he knows more than most, but he still doesn't know everything. ;)

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Belarathon
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Jun 23 2022 09:17pm
Quote (LaughingSkull @ 23 Jun 2022 23:11)
Better read my last post on the previous page where I exhaustively prove that his theory pertaining to CM is incorrect.

I'm not fighting neither you nor him. Could be he knows more than most, but he still doesn't know everything. ;)

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no one is fighting my friend. listen to joey.
LaughingSkull
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Jun 23 2022 09:35pm
Quote (Belarathon @ Jun 24 2022 06:17am)
no one is fighting my friend. listen to joey.


...

DID YOU READ MY LAST POST ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE OR DID YOU NOT ?

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jalapenos
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Jun 23 2022 10:11pm
:hug:
-joey-
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Jun 24 2022 01:56am
Quote (LaughingSkull @ Jun 23 2022 03:32am)
I post AGAIN for two reasons:

1) to ask ^-joey- about something he wrote:



First of all, doesn't the "Magic resistant" monster affix only grant 40% to all res? You wrote "75%".
If this was different in pre-LoD then in LoD, then where do you get that info? What's your source? Is there a wiki dedicated to pre-LoD Diablo?

Second, in LoD, the Magic resistance affix is designed so that it actually DOESN'T add ANY resistance AT ALL to a specific element,
IF[/I] the monster's resistance to said/same element was at or over 100%.

Did Classic, pre-LoD behave the same?
So, if a monster was already at MAX resistance (which was 75% in Classic), it would NOT gain extra res from the Magic resistant affix?

What was the expected behaviour?

--

2) I actually rerolled my Cold sorc with a fresh start because I wasn't happy with my build, so that I can test Cold Mastery more thoroughly

AND I REACHED THE VERDICT THAT COLD MASTERY DOES WORK, BUT STILL NOT THE WAY WE EXPECT IT TO, as outlined above by Joey.

Here is HOW and WHAT I tested:

At level 29, with level 16 Glacial Spike (12 hard points + 4 skills), I noticed the perfect target for my test object:

GROTESQUES !!!

Reason was simple: They would either die from 2 Glacial Spikes, OR the 2nd spike would leave them at a very, very TINY sliver of health.

So, my conjecture was that once I've skilled Cold Mastery, the situation would change:

Grotesques (who have 40% Cold Resistance) would now ALWAYS die from exactly 2 Glacial Spikes, always.

...

Well.. come level 30, and I skill CM. In fact, it's now at level 2, because I have +1 to sorc skills ammy.

So, Grotesques would now have 40% - (34% of 40) Cold resistance, which is approximately 26% Cold res.

Which means that my Glacial Spike, when aimed at Grotesques, would now deal 74% of its damage, up from 60% of it, which is roughly a 23% increase of damage output.

Which guarantees that NOW, Grotesques would ALWAYS die from only two (2) Glacial Spikes, right?

Right?

...

WRONG.


The situation would remain EXACTLY the same as it were before I had skilled Cold Mastery at all:

Grotesques would either die from 2 Glacial Spikes, OR the 2nd one would leave them at a very tiny speck of health (same size as before), requiring a 3rd Glacial Spike to finish them.


...

So, CLEARLY Cold Mastery DOESN'T WORK.

Right?

...
...

WRONG.


I levelled up one more time and AGAIN skilled Cold Mastery, this time bringing it to level 3, (2 + 1), leading to 42% Cold Resistance pierce (according to the tooltip).

Well, gues what?

Now Grotesques would ALWAYS, consistently and inevitably die in exactly 2 Glacial Spikes

What is more:

Their health bar percentage remaining after the first spike is ALWAYS the exact same, every time. Trust me on that one -- I MEASURED IT MANUALLY xD!!!

...

SO WHAT IS GOING ON HERE, THEN ???

Well, here is my latest theory:

Cold Mastery in pre-LoD D2 works neither as a percentage-reduction, nor as pure arithmetic subtraction...

Rather, it works by either removing the monster's ENTIRE resistance altogether, or not removing it at all!!!

* Grotesques have 40% Cold Resistances.

* Up until level 3, Cold Mastery's "percentage reduction" progression is thus: 23, 34, 42.

* The first two levels, despite already offering a significant "reduction", however, don't really affect the strength of your Cold Spells' performance against the Creature at all !!!

* Level 3, however, is the first one that "reduces resistance" by more than 40, namely 42....

* ...which leads to the Grotesque's ENTIRE resistance getting removed, and leaving her with 0.

* Thus, FINALLY, your Glacial Spike's damage actually benefits from the "bonuses" given by the passive skill's "resistance reduction"

---

VERDICT:

Cold Mastery DOES work, but in the most unexpected way possible.



P.S. Will require a bunch of more tests, for which I shall need a CM with a resistance reduction value of 60 or greater. Will report back once I've reached it.[/SIZE]


This is indeed a strange thing how the game calculated with resistances.

I also agree that more tests should be performed before making a final statement.

What I know for sure:
Before 1.10 magic resitant prop was 75% to cold-fire-lightning. This is something that you can easily check via wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20010608212518/http://www.battle.net/diablo2/monsters/bonus.shtml

We also know that there were no immunities before 1.07

However (here comes the interesting part), if you check the original data.mpq file (I have it from 1.00 CD), in monstats.txt actually you will find monsters having 100% resistance in Hell. For example Grotesque has 40% cold res in normal, 70% in nightmare and 100% in hell.
According to that Grotesques should have been immune to cold back then. But they were not. :)

So my theory is as follows:
Blizzard originally had the intention to give immunities to certain monsters (This can make sense, as there were immunities in Diablo1 as well), but for some reason they changed their mind before releasing the game and instead of properly udpating the txt files, they just simply hardcoded a resistence cap, which I believe was 75%.
However during the cold pierce calculations, the total ammount of resist was taken into account. I am almost certain that this is sure, as this might be the reason why it was so hard to kill bosses with multiple resistance affixes: their resistance was so high that even after cold pierce it stayed at capped 75%.

In 1.07, Blizz removed the resistance cap, and monsters could became immune (triple immune mosters were a thing in 1.07). Cold mastery - by its original design - was able to break the immunity in almost every cases, because let's say a monster had 40% base cold res and additional 75% from being cold enchanted, so a lvl1 cold mastery was able to reduce 115% resist to 86% (the mob was still displayed as cold immune, but you were able to kill it).
But, when you had a monster naturally immune to cold (100 base resist) + magic resistant (+75) and cold enchanted (+75), CM was not able to break the immunity.
This was only like 1% of the cases by the way, but clearly points out how CM worked back then (reduction instead of substraction), and also proves my theory that monsters could be immune to an element before LOD as well, but Blizzard blocked that for some reason. And they blocked that by hard coding, instead of properly updating the values in the txt files. And we all know that quick and dirty solutions like that can easily result in unexpected behavior. :)

So, based on the above, my summary is that CM in 1.06 should work as I explained before, but due to the quick and dirty hard-coding made by Blizzard to prevent immunities, there are some unexpected results - exactly what you have experienced.

Frankly speaking, I wish was here, because he knows the coding and database stuff much better than me. I really think, he could solve this mistery.

This post was edited by -joey- on Jun 24 2022 02:20am
LaughingSkull
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Jun 24 2022 08:48am
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Quote (-joey- @ Jun 24 2022 10:56am)
This is indeed a strange thing how the game calculated with resistances.

I also agree that more tests should be performed before making a final statement.

What I know for sure:
Before 1.10 magic resitant prop was 75% to cold-fire-lightning. This is something that you can easily check via wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20010608212518/http://www.battle.net/diablo2/monsters/bonus.shtml


True.

In fact, this change was made in 1.09: https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.09_(Diablo_II)

Quote
Reduced the Resistance bonus for Magic Resistant Uniques (It was 75%; it is now 40%).


Next:

Quote (-joey- @ Jun 24 2022 10:56am)
We also know that there were no immunities before 1.07

However (here comes the interesting part), if you check the original data.mpq file (I have it from 1.00 CD), in monstats.txt actually you will find monsters having 100% resistance in Hell. For example Grotesque has 40% cold res in normal, 70% in nightmare and 100% in hell.
According to that Grotesques should have been immune to cold back then. But they were not. :)

So my theory is as follows:
Blizzard originally had the intention to give immunities to certain monsters (This can make sense, as there were immunities in Diablo1 as well), but for some reason they changed their mind before releasing the game and instead of properly udpating the txt files, they just simply hardcoded a resistence cap, which I believe was 75%.
However during the cold pierce calculations, the total ammount of resist was taken into account. I am almost certain that this is sure, as this might be the reason why it was so hard to kill bosses with multiple resistance affixes: their resistance was so high that even after cold pierce it stayed at capped 75%.

In 1.07, Blizz removed the resistance cap, and monsters could became immune (triple immune mosters were a thing in 1.07). Cold mastery - by its original design - was able to break the immunity in almost every cases, because let's say a monster had 40% base cold res and additional 75% from being cold enchanted, so a lvl1 cold mastery was able to reduce 115% resist to 86% (the mob was still displayed as cold immune, but you were able to kill it).
But, when you had a monster naturally immune to cold (100 base resist) + magic resistant (+75) and cold enchanted (+75), CM was not able to break the immunity.
This was only like 1% of the cases by the way, but clearly points out how CM worked back then (reduction instead of substraction), and also proves my theory that monsters could be immune to an element before LOD as well, but Blizzard blocked that for some reason. And they blocked that by hard coding, instead of properly updating the values in the txt files. And we all know that quick and dirty solutions like that can easily result in unexpected behavior. :)


Fair enough! I agree!

BUT

Quote (-joey- @ Jun 24 2022 10:56am)
So, based on the above, my summary is that CM in 1.06 should work as I explained before.


Um,

No it does not.


If you still insist that it does, then you would also have to explain the situation with the Grotesque I described previously:

Namely that, with the same levels of Glacial Spike, the Grotesque would be just as durable with levels 0, 1, and 2 of CM;
and it would take level 3 CM to at last FINALLY see some improvement in the Glacial Spike's performance against the creature.


HOW do you explain that?

---

BTW there is something really interesting that also needs additional mention:

Back in the day when I first played Diablo 2, it was always exclusively on 1.0, OR, at most, not anything latest than 1.02.

Trust me, I have an EXCELLENT MEMORY, and now that I am playing on 1.06b, I am made to realize several very distinct changes compared to what I remember of my experience from 1.00-1.02:

* Maggots' small ones don't give any XP at all in 1.06!
I remember farming the Maggot Lair wih Lightning / Bone Spear for OBSCENE amounts of XP back in the day; Because small ones also gave you XP, the amount of levels you could gain there was RIDICULOUS.

* Exceptional items started spawning as early as Act 4 Normal in 1.00.
However, in 1.06b I've NEVER found a single Exceptional item in all my River of Flames / CS runs for XP.
Verdict: This was an undocumented change that happened through the patches.
And, no, it's not a case of RNG -- trust me. I've done like a 100 Act 4 Normal runs for XP now... Exceptional items just don't drop there, period.

* The game is definitely much, much harder on 1.06b than it was in 1.00.
Trust me: Back in the day, I was such a young noob, I couldn't make a solid build worth shit. I just SUCKED at the game!
Yet for some reason I didn't think of the game as being all that difficult.
NOW, however, with all my acquired knowledge throughout the years, and min-maxing to the best possible extent, as well as gearing up the best way possible, I STILL find some areas of the game to be unreasonably difficult.
The game was made more difficult through the early patches, without this being explicitly stated in the notes

* Frozen Orb sucks in the way it spreads its damage among enemies, compared to LoD. Can't comment on how it was on 1.00 because I never used it there.

* And possibly many more which I can't think of right now...


I am mentioning all of this because it also pertains to the discussion at hand: Cold Mastery.


It VERY WELL COULD BE that what you have written regarding CM is absolutely, positively, 101% correct... when it comes to 1.00 !!
And yet, I am playing on 1.06, in whose case... IT CLEARLY IS NOT CORRECT !!! :)


---

mic drop.

paging this guy you mentioned.


P.S. I actually have yet one more theory about the true workings of CM. Will post some time from now.

-

This post was edited by LaughingSkull on Jun 24 2022 09:01am
thesnipa
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Jun 24 2022 08:59am
just listen to joey and save ur pts and dont feed any more into CM.
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