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Outraged
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May 10 2022 11:24pm
This might be dumb.
But does anyone know how much QD it would take to make a heavy swing as fast as a regular weapon?

Is there a calculation to it at all?
Or is that even possible?
4ndr3as
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May 11 2022 12:00am
That's not how QD works

It's pretty much a % chance to avoid the delay completely /doing a double hit
izParagonzi
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May 11 2022 03:03am
Old days... QD = 50% faster ... Heavies @ 2 sec delay vs Normal @ 1 sec delay ... 20% QD will only affect 1 out of 5 attacks.

Now I have been told that QD is 75% faster when it activates... Heavies now are 1.8 sec delay and 75% faster IF QD activates = 0.99 sec. BUT, again, it is only based on the the CHANCE that QD activates. If you have 50% QD, you have a 1 out of 2 chances to attack at 1 second.

Note: this is only applicable if the 1 sec delay weapon does NOT have any QD. HOWEVER, if you are talking about AVG damage over time, the heavy & normal weapon WITHOUT QD, the heavy weapons wins.

It is just a numbers game. Simply put. Double damage per 1.8 sec vs Normal damage per 1 sec. Also take into consideration how many times faster you have to click if you had 100% QD on either weapon.

Think I went overboard on explanation. At the end of the day... a Heavy Weapon with exact EE / Stat / QD and Tier level will OUTDAMAGE a normal weapon over the same time.
TGHodin
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May 11 2022 04:00am
Quote (4ndr3as @ May 11 2022 08:00am)
That's not how QD works

It's pretty much a % chance to avoid the delay completely /doing a double hit


Doesn’t seem impossible to calculate this?

Reg weapon: delay 1, damage 10 = DPS 10/1=10
Heavy weapon: delay 1.8, damage 20 = DPS = 11.1

QD on heavy:
QD 44.5%
Delay 1.8
Adjusted average delay (1.8*(1-0.445)) = 1
Average adjusted DPS = 20.02

Solve quick drawn percentage (44.5%) to find the breakeven point at which a heavy weapon on average attacks 1 per second?

Awaiting math geniouses and people with better understanding of game mechanics to explain :D
Matthi
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May 11 2022 04:58am
Quote (TGHodin @ May 11 2022 12:00pm)
Doesn’t seem impossible to calculate this?

Reg weapon: delay 1, damage 10 = DPS 10/1=10
Heavy weapon: delay 1.8, damage 20 = DPS = 11.1

QD on heavy:
QD 44.5%
Delay 1.8
Adjusted average delay (1.8*(1-0.445)) = 1
Average adjusted DPS = 20.02

Solve quick drawn percentage (44.5%) to find the breakeven point at which a heavy weapon on average attacks 1 per second?

Awaiting math geniouses and people with better understanding of game mechanics to explain :D


that would only be true if QD completely removes the delay to 0sec and if you're actually able to do your 2nd attack after QD with a 0sec delay

i don't know if QD removes the delay completely, but even if that's the case you'll still not be able to hit with a 0sec delay

so it varies from player to player how much QD you need to get close to a normal weapon speed; not to mention that heavy weapons are also overkilling monsters way more than normal weapons, and that you'll have a harder time getting in your multi monster abilities in group climbs due to the delay at the beginning of waves; the game would really need an information about effective dmg and overall dmg; high total dmg in a climb doesn't really say much if half your dmg is from overkills (but that's more the question about how effective heavy weapons are and not how fast they are :D sorry for offtopic)




This post was edited by Matthi on May 11 2022 05:01am
TGHodin
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May 11 2022 05:03am
Quote (Matthi @ May 11 2022 12:58pm)
that would only be true if QD completely removes the delay to 0sec and if you're actually able to do your 2nd attack after QD with a 0sec delay

i don't know if QD removes the delay completely, but even if that's the case you'll still not be able to hit with a 0sec delay

so it varies from player to player how much QD you need to get close to a normal weapon speed; not to mention that heavy weapons are also overkilling monsters way more than normal weapons, and that you'll have a harder time getting in your multi monster abilities in group climbs due to the delay at the beginning of waves; the game would really need an information about effective dmg and overall dmg; high total dmg in a climb doesn't really say much if half your dmg is from overkills


if the numbers from izParagonzi are true and QD removes 75% of the delay then you would need 100% QD to reach normal weapon speed



Not contesting any of this, it’s super useful input, and my calculation is indeed based on QD completely removing the delay (but on an average basis - if this is not the case the factor can be adjusted). Was just illustrating that it can be calculated.

Also agreed on overkills and that total damage is at times a poor approximation of your contribution to a climb :)
Outraged
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May 11 2022 05:08am
Quote (Matthi @ May 11 2022 06:58am)
that would only be true if QD completely removes the delay to 0sec and if you're actually able to do your 2nd attack after QD with a 0sec delay

i don't know if QD removes the delay completely, but even if that's the case you'll still not be able to hit with a 0sec delay

so it varies from player to player how much QD you need to get close to a normal weapon speed; not to mention that heavy weapons are also overkilling monsters way more than normal weapons, and that you'll have a harder time getting in your multi monster abilities in group climbs due to the delay at the beginning of waves; the game would really need an information about effective dmg and overall dmg; high total dmg in a climb doesn't really say much if half your dmg is from overkills (but that's more the question about how effective heavy weapons are and not how fast they are :D sorry for offtopic)


if the numbers from izParagonzi are true and QD removes 75% of the delay then you would need 100% QD to reach normal weapon speed


This makes sense.
Ty for the explanation guys

I feel like I am just partially confused on how quick draw works.
I have some higher EE heavies and wanted to test them out.
But don't want to invest into QD if it's a waste of time.
And out of curiosity I asked this question in order to figure out if it's more beneficial with heavies to invest in QD rather than the stat that has the highest dmg ratio per weapon. In my mind if a heavy hits that hard just as fast. What's the point of gearing toward damage boosts over speed?
I feel like overkilling is just going to be the outcome of statting like you would a regular weapon with heavies.
So I was curious if there was a calculation so I could find a balance between speed and effectiveness/dmg
Bigheaded
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May 11 2022 05:12am
Quote (Matthi @ May 11 2022 11:58am)
if the numbers from izParagonzi are true and QD removes 75% of the delay then you would need 100% QD to reach normal weapon speed


100% QD on heavies would be significantly faster than 0% with normal weapons
-75% means 4 times faster. so 1.8 seconds/4 = attacking every 0.45 seconds. As "quickdraw chaining" is a thing where you quickdraw immediately after hitting with quickdraw, so 100% means you infinitely chain quickdraw hits

The calculator which i made does calculate QD correctly with Alex and a few others could see no issue with the calc either: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=91874826&f=74&v=1

All i can say is, QD is being sold way too cheap atm, that 40 dex 8 QD leather should have hit 10k+ imo as that was ~64 dex for the majority of players.
Depends how good your other gear is, Crit/QD have more value the more stats you already have, so using 2x 12% QD items will probably lose in damage to using 2x 25 dex/str items
Matthi
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May 11 2022 05:24am
Quote (Bigheaded @ May 11 2022 01:12pm)
100% QD on heavies would be significantly faster than 0% with normal weapons
-75% means 4 times faster. so 1.8 seconds/4 = attacking every 0.45 seconds. As "quickdraw chaining" is a thing where you quickdraw immediately after hitting with quickdraw, so 100% means you infinitely chain quickdraw hits

The calculator which i made does calculate QD correctly with Alex and a few others could see no issue with the calc either: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=91874826&f=74&v=1

All i can say is, QD is being sold way too cheap atm, that 40 dex 8 QD leather should have hit 10k+ imo as that was ~64 dex for the majority of players.
Depends how good your other gear is, Crit/QD have more value the more stats you already have, so using 2x 12% QD items will probably lose in damage to using 2x 25 dex/str items


that's why i edited that part from my post already earlier :D

i just saw his 1,8sec and 75% faster = 0,99sec

didn't really think about it; but as you say it would be a 0,45sec delay


i do agree that quickdraw is a nice add, but completely skipping stats for pure quickdraw is not a good idea

in my opinion QD on normal weapons is a lot more fun cause you got more chances to trigger the QD with a 1 sec delay than with a 1,8sec delay base
izParagonzi
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May 11 2022 01:51pm
Quote (Bigheaded @ May 11 2022 11:12pm)
100% QD on heavies would be significantly faster than 0% with normal weapons
-75% means 4 times faster. so 1.8 seconds/4 = attacking every 0.45 seconds. As "quickdraw chaining" is a thing where you quickdraw immediately after hitting with quickdraw, so 100% means you infinitely chain quickdraw hits

The calculator which i made does calculate QD correctly with Alex and a few others could see no issue with the calc either: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=91874826&f=74&v=1

All i can say is, QD is being sold way too cheap atm, that 40 dex 8 QD leather should have hit 10k+ imo as that was ~64 dex for the majority of players.
Depends how good your other gear is, Crit/QD have more value the more stats you already have, so using 2x 12% QD items will probably lose in damage to using 2x 25 dex/str items


Great work, I came in to correct my previous error, but you already done this.
_______________

Just to add on a bit more on QD and Heavy Weapons while solo'ing and using the "Auto Attack" in runs.

QD chaining interrupts you when trying to Exit catacomb when clicking Door. (Spam click within the 0.45 sec action.) Note: Tested this out with 20% QD and was not impressed vs Evil Presences.

QD: Heavy Weapons = 0.45 sec / Normal Weapons = 0.25 sec ... Click hard and fast :D
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