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Jul 27 2022 08:38am
Quote (Bigheaded @ 27 Jul 2022 23:59)
arguably yes, but think of it this way, if you did that for 60 points in a row, would that be beneficial?
seeing the calc gives you an average damage, you can see the difference between 4 points into strength and 4 points into dex.

Also the Crit chance is unfortunately hugely wonky for swords/staffs/axes and their heavy counterparts as i don't have the data. It seemed to work quite well for some ratios but some are way off.
By comparison i have over 40,000 hits collected by me and BWConformity on just daggers and clubs, even those crit numbers are a bit iffy, however they generally fall within 1-2%.
I am hopefully collecting sword data soon, which should help a lot in narrowing it down.


I will take a copy of this quote and also post (bump) your critical test thread with my reply:

Okay, from recollection you mentioned 100 stat value (Strength / Dex) in "Crit testing" thread.

Okay, taking that value of 100, have you tested ratios equivalent?

Okay... so the ratio is 75 / 25 ... 25 / 75 ... 90 / 10 ... 10 / 90 and 50 / 50 (all equal 100 stat right?)

Okay, so once you get the perfect ratio, have you tested JUST that stat value vs the weapon type?
Have you then added +X Critical Strike items to the same Stat Value and compared the % ChC?
Have you tested Guardian that has a 75/25 ratio even though the starting stats are 30/10 to compare?
And then add in Critical Strike items?

You may have to forego the +Stat items and just keep the Ratio clean and pump Vitality to get a better read on the ChC of the ratio, and then compare to adding in the Critical Strike items.

JUST a thought... I have been collecting just Critical Strike items on Hardcore and thinking about doing testing this, but, I need your thoughts on it further.
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Jul 27 2022 11:49pm
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jul 27 2022 03:38pm)
I will take a copy of this quote and also post (bump) your critical test thread with my reply:

Okay, from recollection you mentioned 100 stat value (Strength / Dex) in "Crit testing" thread.

Okay, taking that value of 100, have you tested ratios equivalent?

Okay... so the ratio is 75 / 25 ... 25 / 75 ... 90 / 10 ... 10 / 90 and 50 / 50 (all equal 100 stat right?)

Okay, so once you get the perfect ratio, have you tested JUST that stat value vs the weapon type?
Have you then added +X Critical Strike items to the same Stat Value and compared the % ChC?
Have you tested Guardian that has a 75/25 ratio even though the starting stats are 30/10 to compare?
And then add in Critical Strike items?

You may have to forego the +Stat items and just keep the Ratio clean and pump Vitality to get a better read on the ChC of the ratio, and then compare to adding in the Critical Strike items.

JUST a thought... I have been collecting just Critical Strike items on Hardcore and thinking about doing testing this, but, I need your thoughts on it further.


The critical strike mod is extremely close to +1% chance to crit per +1 crit on items.
Both me and Brad agree on this one

Would prefer more results without the crit mod as its one less variable.

There's some evidence that vitality/int might have something to do with crit even on melee weapons as some of the data just doesn't match up.

Hard to say, still a lot of data needed.
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Jul 28 2022 12:32am
Quote (Bigheaded @ 28 Jul 2022 17:49)
The critical strike mod is extremely close to +1% chance to crit per +1 crit on items.
Both me and Brad agree on this one

Would prefer more results without the crit mod as its one less variable.

There's some evidence that vitality/int might have something to do with crit even on melee weapons as some of the data just doesn't match up.

Hard to say, still a lot of data needed.


Thank you for your reply.

Okay, do you have a BASELINE for testing?

As an example I create a guardian and use Longswords because I am using a Baseline of 30 strength and 10 Dexterity for the 75 / 25 ratio and the only stat I increase is Vitality?

EDIT: thus I ignore Bit's n Pieces because it gives +X Dex, or Ambush that also increases Dex etc.

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Jul 28 2022 12:35am
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Jul 28 2022 05:46am
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jul 28 2022 07:32am)
Thank you for your reply.

Okay, do you have a BASELINE for testing?

As an example I create a guardian and use Longswords because I am using a Baseline of 30 strength and 10 Dexterity for the 75 / 25 ratio and the only stat I increase is Vitality?

EDIT: thus I ignore Bit's n Pieces because it gives +X Dex, or Ambush that also increases Dex etc.


I do but i haven't decided what the other variable is.

I also don't have access to the Internet on my laptop for another day (longer if there's an issue) so can't get and explain the formula.
Because of this I haven't looked at it in a while so can't really give you a decent response until my Internet is resolved.

Already used up all the data from my phone once by connecting my laptop to it.
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Aug 6 2022 06:23am
Quote (izParagonzi @ Jul 28 2022 07:32am)
Thank you for your reply.

Okay, do you have a BASELINE for testing?

As an example I create a guardian and use Longswords because I am using a Baseline of 30 strength and 10 Dexterity for the 75 / 25 ratio and the only stat I increase is Vitality?

EDIT: thus I ignore Bit's n Pieces because it gives +X Dex, or Ambush that also increases Dex etc.


The numbers were in the spreadsheet otherwise the v2 sheet wouldn't be able to give you a crit chance. Talking of which link to sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RDkoYfhQSyWW0KNRYTAWZRLxVfeYGgj-nwqOwtgtSOs/edit#gid=0

Just started gathering sword data and i've immediately decided that swords/staffs/longswords/polearms are not using the same formula as the daggers/clubs.
I have 0 new axe data but i would presume axe/battleaxe are on their own formula as well.

It may be that each weapon has its own crit chance formula and i shouldn't be grouping them at all.


What appears to work for daggers/clubs:
(11 * (critical instances) / 100) -3
I've defined a critical instance as putting a point in strength or dexterity which does not add damage.


Given i shouldnt be caring about critical instances any more though i am likely to move back to doing strength/dexterity formulas for 2 reasons:
1. Easier to understand for the majority of players.
2. Main reason i was using critical instances was to simplify changing from different weapon ratios, now i've thrown this out the window as swords are critting way more the calcs guesses i need different formulas for different weapons.


When starting this project for critical hit chance, i expected having 100 strength and 100 dexterity to have the same critical strike chance on all 5 standard weapons.
This simply is not the case,
With some data which has been collected:
120 strength and 110 dexterity on clubs gave roughly a 7% chance to crit over 1800 actions
109 strength and 99 dex on daggers gave roughly a 9% chance to crit over 1200 actions
101 strength and 109 dexterity on swords gave roughly a 22% chance to crit over 800 actions


I think this is already clear enough that i need to rethink the formulas.
There is some positive news for me though, which is if all weapons have their own formula, then that might be what is throwing off the calc rather than an unknown variable such as level, vitality or intelligence.

If you're wondering about where the 11 and -3 have come from, basically my expectation is the formula is under a simple formula and these netted the closest result after trying values between 8 and 12 for the multiplier and +1 to -11 to the standard.
These numbers will be modified so that rather than attempting to get 1 formula for both, i will get the best result for each with current information.
However in general when using those formulas you shouldn't be any further than 2% chance off over 500 actions.

TLDR, simplified version of the only 2 critical formulas which are reasonably accurate:
Daggers: ((11 * ((Strength/10*9) + (Dexterity/10))/100) -3
Clubs: ((11 * ((Strength/10) + (Dexterity/10*9))/100) -3

any crit on items gives roughly a 1% chance to crit (seems slightly lower than this, i use 0.9% in the formula at the moment)

So to throw some numbers in there:
Lets suggest using clubs with 180 strength and 30 dex.
((11 * ((180/10) + (30/10*9))/100) - 3
((11 * (18 + 27))/100) - 3
4.95 - 3 = 1.95% expected chance to crit


do you agree that i need a minimum of 3 formulas? (daggers + clubs, swords + staffs, axes)
Specifically on the ~100 of each stat data with swords/clubs/daggers i very much doubt 1 single formula will cover this amount of variation.
Will probably do 5 in total, 1 for each normal weapon and see how close Rex's heavy weapon data is to the normal variants, if it tallies up then use just 5 formulas, if not then use 10 formulas, 1 for every type of weapon in the game.
Given i'm now going down this route, i will need axe and staff data more than anything else at the moment. ~1000 actions at 5 different values of strength/dex. Doesn't really matter which weapon you choose (although if you went rogue, you might be able to get both in 1 climb?)


As far as i'm aware there is no data on warhammers data and there's very minimal spear data as well.
If you'd like your own copy of this google sheet for you to insert data in, i can sort that out: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DDVq5aE4510_jHwJCZ_IcNyz7GfxU-53McfWQiLsm5M/edit#gid=1717899652
Or you can put the data in whatever format you're currently doing, i personally find the google sheet great for tracking.
This would then be able to prove/disprove whether normal weapons have the same crit rate as heavy weapons as i have pretty significant amounts of dagger/club data.
Ideally need ~1000 actions at the same amount of strength/dex to get data accurate enough for me to really use.


If anyone else would like to gather data, it would be appreciated, as the more data i get, the faster i can get working formulas and be able to improve them for greater accuracy.

This post was edited by Bigheaded on Aug 6 2022 06:25am
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Aug 6 2022 09:25am
Quote (Bigheaded @ Aug 6 2022 02:23am)
The numbers were in the spreadsheet otherwise the v2 sheet wouldn't be able to give you a crit chance. Talking of which link to sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RDkoYfhQSyWW0KNRYTAWZRLxVfeYGgj-nwqOwtgtSOs/edit#gid=0

Just started gathering sword data and i've immediately decided that swords/staffs/longswords/polearms are not using the same formula as the daggers/clubs.
I have 0 new axe data but i would presume axe/battleaxe are on their own formula as well.

It may be that each weapon has its own crit chance formula and i shouldn't be grouping them at all.


What appears to work for daggers/clubs:
(11 * (critical instances) / 100) -3
I've defined a critical instance as putting a point in strength or dexterity which does not add damage.


Given i shouldnt be caring about critical instances any more though i am likely to move back to doing strength/dexterity formulas for 2 reasons:
1. Easier to understand for the majority of players.
2. Main reason i was using critical instances was to simplify changing from different weapon ratios, now i've thrown this out the window as swords are critting way more the calcs guesses i need different formulas for different weapons.


When starting this project for critical hit chance, i expected having 100 strength and 100 dexterity to have the same critical strike chance on all 5 standard weapons.
This simply is not the case,
With some data which has been collected:
120 strength and 110 dexterity on clubs gave roughly a 7% chance to crit over 1800 actions
109 strength and 99 dex on daggers gave roughly a 9% chance to crit over 1200 actions
101 strength and 109 dexterity on swords gave roughly a 22% chance to crit over 800 actions


I think this is already clear enough that i need to rethink the formulas.
There is some positive news for me though, which is if all weapons have their own formula, then that might be what is throwing off the calc rather than an unknown variable such as level, vitality or intelligence.

If you're wondering about where the 11 and -3 have come from, basically my expectation is the formula is under a simple formula and these netted the closest result after trying values between 8 and 12 for the multiplier and +1 to -11 to the standard.
These numbers will be modified so that rather than attempting to get 1 formula for both, i will get the best result for each with current information.
However in general when using those formulas you shouldn't be any further than 2% chance off over 500 actions.

TLDR, simplified version of the only 2 critical formulas which are reasonably accurate:
Daggers: ((11 * ((Strength/10*9) + (Dexterity/10))/100) -3
Clubs: ((11 * ((Strength/10) + (Dexterity/10*9))/100) -3

any crit on items gives roughly a 1% chance to crit (seems slightly lower than this, i use 0.9% in the formula at the moment)

So to throw some numbers in there:
Lets suggest using clubs with 180 strength and 30 dex.
((11 * ((180/10) + (30/10*9))/100) - 3
((11 * (18 + 27))/100) - 3
4.95 - 3 = 1.95% expected chance to crit


^bwconformity do you agree that i need a minimum of 3 formulas? (daggers + clubs, swords + staffs, axes)
Specifically on the ~100 of each stat data with swords/clubs/daggers i very much doubt 1 single formula will cover this amount of variation.
Will probably do 5 in total, 1 for each normal weapon and see how close Rex's heavy weapon data is to the normal variants, if it tallies up then use just 5 formulas, if not then use 10 formulas, 1 for every type of weapon in the game.
Given i'm now going down this route, i will need axe and staff data more than anything else at the moment. ~1000 actions at 5 different values of strength/dex. Doesn't really matter which weapon you choose (although if you went rogue, you might be able to get both in 1 climb?)

^izparagonzi
As far as i'm aware there is no data on warhammers data and there's very minimal spear data as well.
If you'd like your own copy of this google sheet for you to insert data in, i can sort that out: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DDVq5aE4510_jHwJCZ_IcNyz7GfxU-53McfWQiLsm5M/edit#gid=1717899652
Or you can put the data in whatever format you're currently doing, i personally find the google sheet great for tracking.
This would then be able to prove/disprove whether normal weapons have the same crit rate as heavy weapons as i have pretty significant amounts of dagger/club data.
Ideally need ~1000 actions at the same amount of strength/dex to get data accurate enough for me to really use.


If anyone else would like to gather data, it would be appreciated, as the more data i get, the faster i can get working formulas and be able to improve them for greater accuracy.


Wow... I mean... that each weapon type may need its own formula is unfortunate but not necessarily unexpected.

To answer your question, I agree that you need a minimum of 3 formulas in the way you suggest. Hopefully, you do not need 5 or even 10 as you alluded to. TBH I never considered the possibility that clubs and daggers, or swords and staves would differ in formula from each other aside from just replacing dex with str in each case... So hopefully we won't need to go there.

Thank you for your dedication to this testing... I'll try my best to help when I have motivation!

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Aug 6 2022 10:20am
Quote (BWConformity @ Aug 6 2022 04:25pm)
Wow... I mean... that each weapon type may need its own formula is unfortunate but not necessarily unexpected.

To answer your question, I agree that you need a minimum of 3 formulas in the way you suggest. Hopefully, you do not need 5 or even 10 as you alluded to. TBH I never considered the possibility that clubs and daggers, or swords and staves would differ in formula from each other aside from just replacing dex with str in each case... So hopefully we won't need to go there.

Thank you for your dedication to this testing... I'll try my best to help when I have motivation!


Glad you agree, there is about a 1-2% difference between clubs/daggers as far as i've seen in favour of daggers.
No worries about helping, just thought i'd mention what i currently need as you're the only other whos added information since i've got involved.


Basically waiting on 1k actions at 5 different amounts of stats before i attempt a sword formula, will then see if it tallies up to polearms, which seeing they both seem to have about 2.5-3 times higher chance to crit per stat point my underlying feeling here is that they do.
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Aug 19 2022 08:15pm
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RDkoYfhQSyWW0KNRYTAWZRLxVfeYGgj-nwqOwtgtSOs/edit#gid=0

Updates:
Been a revamp on the critical strike formula.

Swords are running about as well as they're likely to until i get very significant amounts of data which allow me to optimise further.

Daggers/clubs are still running off of the old formula.


Formula used:
(Where 1 is 100% chance to crit)
Strength weapons (sword/club/longsword/warhammer):
((0.1*strength + 0.9*dexterity)/10 * multiplier - constant)/100
Dexterity weapons (staff/dagger/polearm/spear)
((0.9*strength + 0.1*dexterity)/10 * multiplier - constant)/100

Multiplier used:
Daggers/clubs/spears/warhammers : 1.1
Swords/staffs/longswords/polearms : 2

Constants used:
Daggers/clubs/spears/warhammers : 3
Swords/staffs/longswords/polearms : 1

I've not added axes/charms to the calc for crit yet as there isn't enough data.


An example of how it's calculated:
120 strength
30 dex
Sword

((0.1*120 + 0.9*30)/10 * 2 - 1)/100
(12+27)/10 * 2 -1)/100
(39/10 * 2 -1)/100
6.8/100 = 0.068 = 6.8% chance to crit.

I've currently presumed that heavy weapons work on the same formulas as their standard equivalents and have some evidence of this from sword results somewhat tallying up to polearm results but with strength/dex flipped.
Much <3 to for lending me his swords to do the tests.


will also point out that very strangely all tested weapons seem to have a 0.1 and 0.9 multiplier to str/dex, where we were "expecting" 0.25 and 0.75 for staffs/swords. However after doing tests, 0.25 and 0.75 were just way off.
This may make very high dual stat charms better than straight strength charms for swords/staffs.
This is actually the main reason i wanted the calc was for comparing charms such as my current 57 strength 2 crit to a 60 strength charm.

This post was edited by Bigheaded on Aug 19 2022 08:35pm
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