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Oct 21 2020 10:18am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 21 2020 10:31am)
Steering the national conversation has always happened. Why is this different?

(I'm generally in favor of more strict enforcement of anti-trust laws. I'm giving you a chance to make your case on this specific issue)


If they opened the source algorithm it would be all but useless. Modern algorithms for huge projects like google are mostly AI, which can't be deciphered even by those who created it because it is dependent on the training process and available data. It's a scientific process in itself to get any insight into why an AI makes its decisions.


Because it crosses into the territory of propaganda. Not making an honest argument like people in a debate would, but misleading by omitting or burying contradictory results.

Useless to the layman, not to software experts.

Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 21 2020 10:31am)
Yeah but that algorithmic explanation will be subject to the same left/right bias anything is. it's just a bunch of zeros and ones, and when someone explains what "get:batch, sysrend2 storgage >>> aNlor k12" or whatever is in there is we'll get a bunch of bullshit and/or legit justifications.

also what is considered a trade secret here? is google required to publish and republish every day as they make advancements?

id be all for an algorithm i could curate for myself, add or remove interests for ads, etc. but a machine gets me to buy stuff more effectively, so google doesnt want that.


I'm not going to pretend I can give technical answers here. I'm after transparency, and if people in the field can tell the public "they're distorting their rendered results like this," that would be enough for me.

Quote (duffman316 @ Oct 21 2020 10:33am)
Do you believe that the government should get involved to control the national conversation instead?

This is starting to sound like something china would approve of.


Does the government currently have a legitimate role in regulating television? Radio?
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Oct 21 2020 10:28am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2020 11:18am)
Because it crosses into the territory of propaganda. Not making an honest argument like people in a debate would, but misleading by omitting or burying contradictory results.

Useless to the layman, not to software experts.


@ Bold - You've been on this forum for how long?

Useless to virtually all software experts as well. The reality is that these "algorithms" after training are black boxes to the software designers as well. They don't actually tell google how to do the sorting, they tell it to maximize ad revenue and watch time and then set their bots to work figuring it out. It's insanely difficult to figure out why an AI makes the decisions it does once it reaches a certain level of complexity, and the largest companies AI has reached that about 10 years ago.
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Oct 21 2020 10:38am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2020 11:18am)




I'm not going to pretend I can give technical answers here. I'm after transparency, and if people in the field can tell the public "they're distorting their rendered results like this," that would be enough for me.


Ya its fairly simple, goal = maximum revenue for their ad partners. button was pushed and the machine does the rest based on that goal.

i think there's 2 things at play here, 1 you think the human element is far greater than it is, 2 you are assuming a liberal bias more than it actually is. its a machine with a profit bias.

do you have any examples of google doing something that looks human altered along a liberal bias? we've all heard the "google is liberal" platitudes, but i dont have examples.
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Oct 21 2020 11:17am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 21 2020 11:28am)
@ Bold - You've been on this forum for how long?

Useless to virtually all software experts as well. The reality is that these "algorithms" after training are black boxes to the software designers as well. They don't actually tell google how to do the sorting, they tell it to maximize ad revenue and watch time and then set their bots to work figuring it out. It's insanely difficult to figure out why an AI makes the decisions it does once it reaches a certain level of complexity, and the largest companies AI has reached that about 10 years ago.


The world doesn't come to me for answers to their questions, they go to Google.

Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 21 2020 11:38am)
Ya its fairly simple, goal = maximum revenue for their ad partners. button was pushed and the machine does the rest based on that goal.

i think there's 2 things at play here, 1 you think the human element is far greater than it is, 2 you are assuming a liberal bias more than it actually is. its a machine with a profit bias.

do you have any examples of google doing something that looks human altered along a liberal bias? we've all heard the "google is liberal" platitudes, but i dont have examples.


http://www.canirank.com/blog/analysis-of-political-bias-in-internet-search-engine-results/

This post was edited by Santara on Oct 21 2020 11:17am
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Oct 21 2020 11:20am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2020 12:17pm)
The world doesn't come to me for answers to their questions, they go to Google.

http://www.canirank.com/blog/analysis-of-political-bias-in-internet-search-engine-results/


They can just as easily go somewhere else.

That's my hangup, how easy it is to access competitors. In a company town for example you may have to travel miles to get a new town square. In this case its so easy to access a competitor. It's trivial.
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Oct 21 2020 11:30am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 21 2020 12:17pm)
The world doesn't come to me for answers to their questions, they go to Google.



http://www.canirank.com/blog/analysis-of-political-bias-in-internet-search-engine-results/


looking at the study, using "abortion" as an example. result 1, PP, shocker, makes massive money from abortions. financial bias is clear. webmd, early partner with google because ads are what pay their bills. etc.

im still seeing a largely ad driven financial bias.

honestly i think that liberal slant is real, but its WAY smaller than you think. i think its ad driven. and what you're seeing is the liberal bias placed on ad revenue, which bears out as google results.

try running a TV add for pro-life, for pro guns, for a large number of GOP core issues. people wont run it, unless its political season and connected to a candidate.

but run a global warming ad, run a pro choice ad, run an ad thats left leaning and pro DNC and it will get air time.

if google could make more money running with a GOP slant they would.
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Oct 21 2020 11:34am
Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 21 2020 12:30pm)
looking at the study, using "abortion" as an example. result 1, PP, shocker, makes massive money from abortions. financial bias is clear. webmd, early partner with google because ads are what pay their bills. etc.
im still seeing a largely ad driven financial bias.
honestly i think that liberal slant is real, but its WAY smaller than you think. i think its ad driven. and what you're seeing is the liberal bias placed on ad revenue, which bears out as google results.
try running a TV add for pro-life, for pro guns, for a large number of GOP core issues. people wont run it, unless its political season and connected to a candidate.
but run a global warming ad, run a pro choice ad, run an ad thats left leaning and pro DNC and it will get air time.
if google could make more money running with a GOP slant they would.


The slant isn't really "liberal". Google has actively devalued LGBTQ things on YouTube for a very very long time, and continue to do so. When Sargon of Akkad gets into controversy they demonetize the people on the left who respond to him as well as Sargon.

and don't get me started on how it's basically a 0% monetization rate for anybody who talks about left wing economics.

It's the advertiser pressure that causes the "leftist slant" because the way to make money is to be center left, but not so far that you alienate people, bring up alternative economic systems, or mention LGBT stuff because kids might be watching.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Oct 21 2020 11:35am
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Oct 21 2020 11:38am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 21 2020 12:34pm)
The slant isn't really "liberal". Google has actively devalued LGBTQ things on YouTube for a very very long time, and continue to do so. When Sargon of Akkad gets into controversy they demonetize the people on the left who respond to him as well as Sargon.

and don't get me started on how it's basically a 0% monetization rate for anybody who talks about left wing economics.

It's the advertiser pressure that causes the "leftist slant" because the way to make money is to be center left, but not so far that you alienate people, bring up alternative economic systems, or mention LGBT stuff because kids might be watching.


youtube's policy and google search results are pretty tangential tho.

youtube's policy is up front far more censoring than what they claim their google results to be.
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Oct 21 2020 11:41am
Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 21 2020 12:38pm)
youtube's policy and google search results are pretty tangential tho.

youtube's policy is up front far more censoring than what they claim their google results to be.


I google'd "abortion" and got

Planned Parenthood
Wiki article on abortion
WHO on abortion
Foundations of Life

So one pro choice, two informative, and one pro life.

Seems pretty balanced IMO. You'll find what you're looking for. If you're wanting an abortion you'll get that, if you're wanting to be talked out of the abortion you'll get that too.
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Oct 21 2020 12:15pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 21 2020 12:41pm)
I google'd "abortion" and got

Planned Parenthood
Wiki article on abortion
WHO on abortion
Foundations of Life

So one pro choice, two informative, and one pro life.

Seems pretty balanced IMO. You'll find what you're looking for. If you're wanting an abortion you'll get that, if you're wanting to be talked out of the abortion you'll get that too.


in any case studying based on 1 word phrases is pretty junk, who just types "abortion" into google? a 12 year old?
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