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Mar 11 2020 06:18pm
Quote (IceMage @ 11 Mar 2020 20:06)
Manipulate how? Why are the endorsements of politicians who think Bernie is too radical and would lose not legitimate? Why is the first state with a significant African-American vote choosing Biden not legitimate? The primary process starts with a couple states without significant minority populations, which isn't representative of the Democratic party.

Endorsements aren't dirty politics... they're just politics. If Bernie can't manage to win some important people over, why should we believe he could pass significant legislation?


Quote (fender @ 11 Mar 2020 20:17)
where do you see me saying any of that is 'illegitimate'? the timing of the endorsements (klob dropping out before her homestate despite previously mentioning she wouldn't do that / butt dropping out just hours after publicly stating he wouldn't) suggests some major manipulation behind the scenes. is that illegal? no, of course not. but is it manipulative and dirty? you know that as well as me. suggesting the decisions of klob, butt, beta, and kamala were just 'principled' and 'natural' in their timing and substance is pretty fucking gullible...



heinrich is right here
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Mar 12 2020 06:42am
no, he is not. why should it be manipulative if the moderates/establishment candidates rally around their strongest candidate? for the process to be manipulative, they would have to lie to their voters or fearmonger with a scenario that isnt realistic. they didnt do any of that.

buttigieg and klobuchar dropped out because they indeed had no more path to the nomination after SC. they endorsed Biden because his platform is indeed closer to theirs than that of Bernie. they warned voters that nominating Bernie would be a huge risk in the general and threaten the Democratic House majority which is fueled by centrist candidates in swing- or light-red districts, and all of this is the truth.

furthermore, everyone should keep in mind that Bernie's vote share did not go down after SC - he didnt lose on Super Tuesday because voters were manipulated into abandoning him. no, he lost because the other side finally consolidated and stopped stealing delegates from each other. Bernie NEVER, at no point during the race, came even close to a majority. In every single contest, there was a clear majority against Bernie, and almost always there was a clear majority for the candidates from the moderate/establishment lane.

the only dirty play I have noticed so far is that one super-PAC which pretended to help Warren, but actually just wanted to keep her in the race a little longer so she could prevent Bernie from consolidating the progressive lane. but even then, Bernie didnt really do any better this week, after Warren dropped out.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 12 2020 06:43am
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Mar 12 2020 08:47am
The DNC did a ton of shady shit in 2016 to fuck over Bernie.

I haven't been made aware of the same kind of thing for this primary. They seem to be taking a much more hands off approach and letting it play out as primaries do.

Making pacts with other candidates that aren't going to win to get their endorsements is standard primary fodder.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Mar 12 2020 08:47am
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Mar 12 2020 02:55pm
Quote (fender @ Mar 11 2020 08:17pm)
where do you see me saying any of that is 'illegitimate'? the timing of the endorsements (klob dropping out before her homestate despite previously mentioning she wouldn't do that / butt dropping out just hours after publicly stating he wouldn't) suggests some major manipulation behind the scenes. is that illegal? no, of course not. but is it manipulative and dirty? you know that as well as me. suggesting the decisions of klob, butt, beta, and kamala were just 'principled' and 'natural' in their timing and substance is pretty fucking gullible...


Agreed with Black.

I think there's a couple areas of disagreement(you disagree with every characterization I make about your positions, but here goes):

You think people in the Democratic party encouraging someone to drop out is manipulative and dirty. I generally don't. Sure, if it was leaked that Tom Perez was working behind the scenes to get people to drop out in an attempt to help Biden, that would be dirty, because Perez has said he wouldn't do those sorts of things. Aside from him and a few others at the DNC, Democrats are free to use whatever power they have to shape the primary. Even if Obama personally made calls to Pete and Amy to encourage them to drop out and endorse Biden(which is highly unlikely), I view it as standard politics. Just as all the angry Bernie supporters on Twitter who called for Warren to drop out, powerful people in the party have a right to voice their opinions in public or private. It's Bernie's fault if he can't get more powerful Democrats on his side.

To be honest, I'm fine with political parties putting their thumbs on the scale to influence who wins the nomination. I trust the leadership at the DNC and pre-Trump RNC far more than I do the masses.

This post was edited by IceMage on Mar 12 2020 02:57pm
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Mar 12 2020 02:59pm
Fender is really upset that Bernie shit the bed.

Fantastic.
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Mar 12 2020 03:00pm
Quote (IceMage @ Mar 12 2020 03:55pm)
Agreed with Black.

I think there's a couple areas of disagreement(you disagree with every characterization I make about your positions, but here goes):

You think people in the Democratic party encouraging someone to drop out is manipulative and dirty. I generally don't. Sure, if it was leaked that Tom Perez was working behind the scenes to get people to drop out in an attempt to help Biden, that would be dirty, because Perez has said he wouldn't do those sorts of things. Aside from him and a few others at the DNC, Democrats are free to use whatever power they have to shape the primary. Even if Obama personally made calls to Pete and Amy to encourage them to drop out and endorse Biden(which is highly unlikely), I view it as standard politics. Just as all the angry Bernie supporters on Twitter who called for Warren to drop out, powerful people in the party have a right to voice their opinions in public or private. It's Bernie's fault if he can't get more powerful Democrats on his side.

To be honest, I'm fine with political parties putting their thumbs on the scale to influence who wins the nomination. I trust the leadership at the DNC and pre-Trump RNC far more than I do the masses.


derpy's entire position ignores that its very common for a large number of people to drop out after lackluster super tuesdays, bereft of any conspiracy by the establishment. its like he doesnt realize that happens in every POTUS race with a high number of candidates left in by super tuesday. he's probably only comparing it to the GOP in 2016 where a large number stayed in to try and force a convention to stop Trump, which was more like actual establishment collusion.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Mar 12 2020 03:01pm
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Mar 12 2020 03:02pm
Quote (IceMage @ 12 Mar 2020 21:55)
Agreed with Black.

I think there's a couple areas of disagreement(you disagree with every characterization I make about your positions, but here goes):

You think people in the Democratic party encouraging someone to drop out is manipulative and dirty. I generally don't. Sure, if it was leaked that Tom Perez was working behind the scenes to get people to drop out in an attempt to help Biden, that would be dirty, because Perez has said he wouldn't do those sorts of things. Aside from him and a few others at the DNC, Democrats are free to use whatever power they have to shape the primary. Even if Obama personally made calls to Pete and Amy to encourage them to drop out and endorse Biden(which is highly unlikely), I view it as standard politics. Just as all the angry Bernie supporters on Twitter who wanted Warren to drop out, powerful people in the party have a right to voice their opinions in public or private. It's Bernie's fault if he can't get more powerful Democrats on his side.

To be honest, I'm fine with political parties putting their thumbs on the scale to influence who wins the nomination. I trust the leadership at the DNC and 2016 RNC far more than I do the masses.


In a clean two-way primary race, I would trust the masses more than the party establishment. It is both justified and necessary, however, for the party establishment to intervene in certain situation where a suboptimal outcome for the party is looming. One such situation is when the rules (viability threshold) and a hyperfractured field cause a candidate to win who clearly has no majority appeal within his party.
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Mar 12 2020 03:12pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 12 Mar 2020 22:00)
derpy's entire position ignores that its very common for a large number of people to drop out after lackluster super tuesdays, bereft of any conspiracy by the establishment. its like he doesnt realize that happens in every POTUS race with a high number of candidates left in by super tuesday. he's probably only comparing it to the GOP in 2016 where a large number stayed in to try and force a convention to stop Trump, which was more like actual establishment collusion.


Trump polled around 35%, Bernie only around 25%. That and the more winner-takes-all heavy nature of the Republican primaries meant that Trump was MUCH harder to stop. Essentially, the only way for the RNC to have stopped Trump in 2016 would have been to force JEB!, Kasich and the other minor candidates out before voting even begins, and to then rally around either Cruz or Rubio, the only candidates with any hopes of defeating Trump in a 1on1 race when the party throws its full weight behind them. By the time Trump had won a couple of primaries, his delegate lead, polling lead and momentum were already in full effect. Their only chance at stopping Trump in spite of their delegate rules was to nip his momentum in the bud. By the time the RNC realized that Trump was a real "threat", it was already too late.

By contrast, in the 2020 Democratic primaries, they had (just barely) enough time to react. When Sanders looked strong after Nevada and the rest of the field looked weak, Bernie clearly threatened to open up an insurmountable delegate lead on Super Tuesday. But the DNC had the time and the awareness to coalesce around one broadly acceptable candidate just in time. I guess that's another key difference: in Biden, the DNC did have a well-credentialed and broadly acceptable candidate. The RNC in 2016 didnt have someone like that.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 12 2020 03:12pm
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Mar 12 2020 04:13pm
Quote (IceMage @ 12 Mar 2020 21:55)
Agreed with Black.

I think there's a couple areas of disagreement(you disagree with every characterization I make about your positions, but here goes):

You think people in the Democratic party encouraging someone to drop out is manipulative and dirty. I generally don't. Sure, if it was leaked that Tom Perez was working behind the scenes to get people to drop out in an attempt to help Biden, that would be dirty, because Perez has said he wouldn't do those sorts of things. Aside from him and a few others at the DNC, Democrats are free to use whatever power they have to shape the primary. Even if Obama personally made calls to Pete and Amy to encourage them to drop out and endorse Biden(which is highly unlikely), I view it as standard politics. Just as all the angry Bernie supporters on Twitter who called for Warren to drop out, powerful people in the party have a right to voice their opinions in public or private. It's Bernie's fault if he can't get more powerful Democrats on his side.

To be honest, I'm fine with political parties putting their thumbs on the scale to influence who wins the nomination. I trust the leadership at the DNC and pre-Trump RNC far more than I do the masses.


i know, and that's stupid. that's why you will only ever get establishment candidates who are beholden to their donors, and not their voters. again, obviously none of that is technically illegal - corporate owned lawmakers made sure it wouldn't be in the last couple of decades - but that doesn't mean it isn't manipulative, no matter how desperately you're trying to normalise it.
we should trust the experts with working out the details and implementing policies - but trusting them to platform those that are in the interest of their voters, that are the best for the average american, is outright moronic - as long as they work for people who make a fortune off exploiting the working class, this will not happen. you can ignore it / try to portray it as conspiratorial / tell me that you're fine with it, and that it isn't really so bad... all you want, but the simple truth is:

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Mar 12 2020 08:15pm
lol great laughs over in a reddit thread

titled that Bernie can fix the collapsing stock market, and a toppish comment said that since c-19 has hit bernies electability isn't an issue because anyone can beat trump now so biden should be set aside.

so detached from reality is pure comedy.
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