My starting point is I want political parties in America that are serious minded. I don't want nutjobs running the show in either party. It's a lot like my starting point with politicians... before we even get to policy, they have to pass a basic standard of seriousness, competence, and character. I can't support a 9/11 truther, a Qanon conspiracy theorist, or an overtly terrible person because they fail the first test.

But I reject the premise of your first point. First, before Trump the GOP wasn't losing election after election. They lost twice to a once-in-a-generation political talent in Barack Obama, but throughout that period did well in elections at both the federal and state level. The GOP won control of the House when Romney lost in 2012 btw. Second, I truly think if the GOP became a more serious party, while perhaps adopting a more compassionate conservative and populist economic policy, they would do much better. Especially considering the excesses of the Democratic party. Maybe motivating the base would drop off because they wouldn't pretend Democrats are evil Commies, but they could make it up in other places(like winning back the suburbs and continuing to win over minorities).

I think that article is garbage but that's a side point.

A lot of Trump voters are nasty and stupid people. Many are deplorable, and every single one deserves some blame for the disastrous last 4 years. Honestly I view the angry Trump supporter almost like a toddler... they are irrationally angry over the reality of life in America today, and lash out by electing a guy to burn everything down. I look at these people as some of the most anti-American voters out there... and their support of Trump trying to steal the election certainly helps my case. They don't love the country, they love the fictional America in their head, free of people who disagree with them or live their lives differently.

That said, if the GOP wants to adopt more populist economic policies to appeal to these people, go for it. But if the question is whether angry, dumb, anti-American individuals should be politically homeless? I would hope so.

This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 4 2020 10:13am

That's the old "flawed vessel"-debate. For my part, I believe that even a very flawed person can induce positive political change, particularly when the big picture calls for disruption/change rather than a preservation of the status quo. But that's a subjective question, I can understand that many people see it like you do.


The GOP won the House in 2010, on the heels of the usual anti-incumbent midterm backlash. In 2012, they only held the chamber because of the gerrymanders they put in place after 2010.

Furthermore, I'm not exclusively talking about winning elections, I'm also talking about prevailing on policy. Aside from Wall Street tax cuts and a bloated Pentagon budget, can you name me a single policy issue on which conservatives scored a major win between 1992 and 2016? Can you name me a single policy issue on which Republicans were able to pull public opinion in their direction/make the public adopt the conservative perspective? Can you name me a single field on which the GOP/the conservative movement increased its power in non-public institutions (like e.g. academia or the media) or was otherwise able to chip away at the cultural hegemony of liberalism?



Agreed. I would even go further and say that a skilled communicator with the necessary degree of self-restraint could keep striking the populist tones and voice working-class grievances (in the right dose and the right places) without turning off suburbanites or minorities. Trump was far too crude and abrasive.



That's a fundamentally undemocratic stance. The central idea of democracy is that everyone, rich and poor, smart and stupid, high-minded and deplorable, gets a voice and a say in the future direction of the shared society. Your attitude reminds me of a famous quote from German writer Bertold Brecht, who mockingly wrote in reference to the East German uprising of 1953 (which was violently suppressed by soviet tanks):

"The people lost the trust of the government. Wouldn't it be easier if the government dissolved the people and elected a new one?"



The reality of life in America is the result of the political decisions made in previous decades. For decades, Democrats and Republicans alike were doubling down on deregulatory policies, warmongering, outsourcing and deindustrialization, mass immigration, culture wars and corporatism. None of these things were inevitable, at least not the massive extent to which they took place. On a really high abstraction level, that's the common core of all modern populist movements: the belief that the status quo is not inevitable or without alternative; that the right kind of government could induce a true change of direction.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Dec 4 2020 12:42pm

AOC is a dumb cunt and you should feel ashamed of giving that spic ass bitch a compliment. Until AOC is smart enough to suck off some negro cock to get ahead, she is dumber than Kamala.

That's the primary measure of success though. Is it healthy for our country? Absolutely not. It's very clear that the GOP constituency will eat up an insane amount of bullshit and that's more a problem with the American people.

Jindal warned the GOP that they were becoming anti-intellectual and it fell on deaf ears. The Republican Party IS the party of stupid. They are simply giving their constituents what they want.



Eh, I disagree. Most of these people ARE nasty and stupid. The same applies to a lot of Democratic voters but that coalition isn't large enough to win elections.

This post was edited by thundercock on Dec 4 2020 04:17pm

I missed the classic tcock posts

It's not simply a flawed vessel debate. It's a question of whether leadership matters, beyond which bills they scribble their name at the bottom of. You and others have made the determination that it doesn't matter how incompetent, corrupt, and horrible a person is... the only thing that ultimately matters is what bills they sign. To me, that's a completely absurd position. That line of thinking excuses almost any behavior from a politician, as we have seen the past 4 years.



The point stands. Even when Romney lost, the GOP won the House. Trump just lost, and they didn't win the House.

I guess it depends how you define wins. Bill Clinton devolved welfare to the states, passed a tough on crime bill, and passed the Defense of Marriage Act. It is kind of funny that these happened under a Democratic president, lol. I would say that Republicans helped lower the deficit under Obama by forcing sequestration.

What's the point here though? Trump passed standard Republican tax cuts and bloated the defense budget. Conservatives haven't gained power in academia, media, or popular culture. In fact, I would argue the conservative or right-wing brand has suffered under Trump, for obvious reasons. He's a uniquely polarizing figure.

Sure, Trump was able to move Republican opinion on things like trade, but I don't think any honest person can say that his trade policy has been a clear success. He's had to bail out farmers because of the trade war.

Also, you're not a social conservative, amirite? So why do you care if the culture is moving left?



That seems like a silly viewpoint. So your position is that white supremacists and Black Power individuals deserve a voice in Congress and the White House? It's the job of national leaders to appeal to, as corny as it sounds, "the better angels of our nature". There's views in America that aren't legitimate, and I consider some of the views of the angry Trump cultists to belong in that category.

Putting aside the fact that some of the things you listed are policies that Trump supports... American voters are responsible for the decisions they made. George W Bush deregulated the economy, passed tax cuts, and started two wars, yet he was re-elected. Politicians for years have not done everything they could to control the border, yet were re-elected. Politicians pursued corporate-friendly policies, and were re-elected. These angry Trump supporters need to grow up and take responsibility for the decisions they made. And they also need to recognize that Washington doesn't control the world... some things were basically inevitable, like the culture moving left, or low-skill jobs leaving the United States because of globalization and technological progress.

This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 4 2020 05:38pm

Kristi Noem will save us in 2024

Why don't you pick someone who isn't objectively pro-COVID?

Noem's nursing home policies are one of the best in the country.

Wtf my brother?

Who would be your preferred GOP candidate for 2024?
Maybe someone like Nikki Haley or Kasich?