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Marcelius91
#11 Jun 14 2019 10:07am
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Quote (munn_haa @ 14 Jun 2019 15:36)
:bouncy:


In general, I think all fighters with an extensive BJJ background need a reset. Firstly, they need to shift their attention to leg-locks and secondly, they need to focus on developing their kicks way more. People don't kick, because they don't want to be taken down, but that's not an issue if your grappling skills are elite. Ryan Hall is someone who has exploited this by thinking: if only Stephen Thompson had my grappling skills, he'd be unstoppable. And with that, he has adopted that same point-style karate kicking from him. I heard he has worked with Stephen's father Ray to incorporate that. Now the guy is basically this: 1. side-kick > front-leg roundhouse / front-leg hook kick... > opponent tries to close distance > clinch / pulls guard / falls to the ground; 2. jab > opponent tries to close distance > rolls to leg-lock. Making the most use of his skill set while keeping the fight away from his weakness, his boxing range. Annoying for their opponents, boring for most viewers, but safe and effective.

If Maia realized this when he started out in MMA instead of taking a wrestler-boxer approach, he'd be a long-reigning champ. If Werdum trained like this instead of putting so much of his training time in Muay Thai, he wouldn't have needed to wait till the end of his career to get the belt (and the type of KO Miocic gave him probably wouldn't have happened). Same for Souza. Puts way too much time in Muay Thai... should've at least shift his focus to leg-locks. (Not a knock on Muay Thai and other static styles of striking, it's actually very suitable to wrestlers, but not so much for BJJ specialists.)

If Mackenzie Dern, Kron Gracie and Garry Tonon are going to follow this point-karate style path, I could see them having a bright future. Otherwise someone will expose their striking defense someday and no amount training at their age will be enough to close that hole in their striking defense.
munn_haa
#12 Jun 14 2019 10:24am
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Quote (Marcelius91 @ 14 Jun 2019 12:07)
In general, I think all fighters with an extensive BJJ background need a reset. Firstly, they need to shift their attention to leg-locks and secondly, they need to focus on developing their kicks way more. People don't kick, because they don't want to be taken down, but that's not an issue if your grappling skills are elite. Ryan Hall is someone who has exploited this by thinking: if only Stephen Thompson had my grappling skills, he'd be unstoppable. And with that, he has adopted that same point-style karate kicking from him. I heard he has worked with Stephen's father Ray to incorporate that. Now the guy is basically this: 1. side-kick > front-leg roundhouse / front-leg hook kick... > opponent tries to close distance > clinch / pulls guard / falls to the ground; 2. jab > opponent tries to close distance > rolls to leg-lock. Making the most use of his skill set while keeping the fight away from his weakness, his boxing range. Annoying for their opponents, boring for most viewers, but safe and effective.

If Maia realized this when he started out in MMA instead of taking a wrestler-boxer approach, he'd be a long-reigning champ. If Werdum trained like this instead of putting so much of his training time in Muay Thai, he wouldn't have needed to wait till the end of his career to get the belt (and the type of KO Miocic gave him probably wouldn't have happened). Same for Souza. Puts way too much time in Muay Thai... should've at least shift his focus to leg-locks. (Not a knock on Muay Thai and other static styles of striking, it's actually very suitable to wrestlers, but not so much for BJJ specialists.)

If Mackenzie Dern, Kron Gracie and Garry Tonon are going to follow this point-karate style path, I could see them having a bright future. Otherwise someone will expose their striking defense someday and no amount training at their age will be enough to close that hole in their striking defense.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rolleyes:
hoipolloi
#13 Jun 14 2019 12:51pm
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Quote (Marcelius91 @ Jun 14 2019 11:07am)
In general, I think all fighters with an extensive BJJ background need a reset. Firstly, they need to shift their attention to leg-locks and secondly, they need to focus on developing their kicks way more. People don't kick, because they don't want to be taken down, but that's not an issue if your grappling skills are elite. Ryan Hall is someone who has exploited this by thinking: if only Stephen Thompson had my grappling skills, he'd be unstoppable. And with that, he has adopted that same point-style karate kicking from him. I heard he has worked with Stephen's father Ray to incorporate that. Now the guy is basically this: 1. side-kick > front-leg roundhouse / front-leg hook kick... > opponent tries to close distance > clinch / pulls guard / falls to the ground; 2. jab > opponent tries to close distance > rolls to leg-lock. Making the most use of his skill set while keeping the fight away from his weakness, his boxing range. Annoying for their opponents, boring for most viewers, but safe and effective.

If Maia realized this when he started out in MMA instead of taking a wrestler-boxer approach, he'd be a long-reigning champ. If Werdum trained like this instead of putting so much of his training time in Muay Thai, he wouldn't have needed to wait till the end of his career to get the belt (and the type of KO Miocic gave him probably wouldn't have happened). Same for Souza. Puts way too much time in Muay Thai... should've at least shift his focus to leg-locks. (Not a knock on Muay Thai and other static styles of striking, it's actually very suitable to wrestlers, but not so much for BJJ specialists.)

If Mackenzie Dern, Kron Gracie and Garry Tonon are going to follow this point-karate style path, I could see them having a bright future. Otherwise someone will expose their striking defense someday and no amount training at their age will be enough to close that hole in their striking defense.


Didn't come close to reading but I admire ur dedication u r gonna make a luky man very happy as house wife, I wish u blessing in the coming uear
Shiney420
#14 Jun 18 2019 11:32pm
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Rockhold
munn_haa
#15 Jun 19 2019 07:11am
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Quote (Shiney420 @ 19 Jun 2019 01:32)
Rockhold


ohh yeah

sometimes people forget about him
that left kick of his is great, but that's about it. Token would help him alot =)
ty 4 input
AnimeA
#16 Jun 19 2019 08:50am
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Quote (Marcelius91 @ Jun 14 2019 10:07am)
In general, I think all fighters with an extensive BJJ background need a reset. Firstly, they need to shift their attention to leg-locks and secondly, they need to focus on developing their kicks way more. People don't kick, because they don't want to be taken down, but that's not an issue if your grappling skills are elite. Ryan Hall is someone who has exploited this by thinking: if only Stephen Thompson had my grappling skills, he'd be unstoppable. And with that, he has adopted that same point-style karate kicking from him. I heard he has worked with Stephen's father Ray to incorporate that. Now the guy is basically this: 1. side-kick > front-leg roundhouse / front-leg hook kick... > opponent tries to close distance > clinch / pulls guard / falls to the ground; 2. jab > opponent tries to close distance > rolls to leg-lock. Making the most use of his skill set while keeping the fight away from his weakness, his boxing range. Annoying for their opponents, boring for most viewers, but safe and effective.

If Maia realized this when he started out in MMA instead of taking a wrestler-boxer approach, he'd be a long-reigning champ. If Werdum trained like this instead of putting so much of his training time in Muay Thai, he wouldn't have needed to wait till the end of his career to get the belt (and the type of KO Miocic gave him probably wouldn't have happened). Same for Souza. Puts way too much time in Muay Thai... should've at least shift his focus to leg-locks. (Not a knock on Muay Thai and other static styles of striking, it's actually very suitable to wrestlers, but not so much for BJJ specialists.)

If Mackenzie Dern, Kron Gracie and Garry Tonon are going to follow this point-karate style path, I could see them having a bright future. Otherwise someone will expose their striking defense someday and no amount training at their age will be enough to close that hole in their striking defense.


Lol. Let's go through the list of champs starting at 125.

125- boxer wrestler
135-boxer wrestler
145- boxer wrestler
155- wrestler boxer
170- boxer wrestler
185- boxer
205- whatever his opponent is best at but mainly boxing wrestling
Heavyweight- wrestler boxer

Looks like point style karate is the way to go......... what?!

And to answer the OP, whoever isnt a wrestler boxer should change to wrestling and boxing
Marcelius91
#17 Jun 19 2019 09:53am
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Quote (AnimeA @ 19 Jun 2019 16:50)
Lol. Let's go through the list of champs starting at 125.

125- boxer wrestler
135-boxer wrestler
145- boxer wrestler
155- wrestler boxer
170- boxer wrestler
185- boxer
205- whatever his opponent is best at but mainly boxing wrestling
Heavyweight- wrestler boxer

Looks like point style karate is the way to go......... what?!

And to answer the OP, whoever isnt a wrestler boxer should change to wrestling and boxing



You are distorting my point. I did not say karate-BJJ is superior than boxer-wrestler for every fighter. I was showing what the best approach is for BJJ based MMA fighters [read: In general ... a reset]. Most of them are just starting to learn how to box and they are already in their late 20s / early 30s. You only have 24h in a day. If you'd convert them into a boxer-wrestler, they will always be at a disadvantage against true boxer-wrestlers who have been wrestling and boxing since they were a kid. How would you corner Ryan Hall or Kron Gracie against pure wrestler-boxers like Khabib or Frankie Edgar? What would your strategy be for Dern against Shevchenko? How would you set up their training camp? Focus on boxing and wrestling and let them fight in that style? That's a good way of giving an underdog-vs-favorite-fight an expected result.

If someone is like 14 years of age and want to learn MMA, 9 out of 10 times, I would turn them into a wrestler-boxer instead of making them go through the belt ranks of BJJ. But that wasn't my point. Please read with more attention before replying.
AnimeA
#18 Jun 19 2019 11:58am
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Quote (Marcelius91 @ Jun 19 2019 09:53am)
You are distorting my point. I did not say karate-BJJ is superior than boxer-wrestler for every fighter. I was showing what the best approach is for BJJ based MMA fighters [read: In general ... a reset]. Most of them are just starting to learn how to box and they are already in their late 20s / early 30s. You only have 24h in a day. If you'd convert them into a boxer-wrestler, they will always be at a disadvantage against true boxer-wrestlers who have been wrestling and boxing since they were a kid. How would you corner Ryan Hall or Kron Gracie against pure wrestler-boxers like Khabib or Frankie Edgar? What would your strategy be for Dern against Shevchenko? How would you set up their training camp? Focus on boxing and wrestling and let them fight in that style? That's a good way of giving an underdog-vs-favorite-fight an expected result.

If someone is like 14 years of age and want to learn MMA, 9 out of 10 times, I would turn them into a wrestler-boxer instead of making them go through the belt ranks of BJJ. But that wasn't my point. Please read with more attention before replying.


Let's just get this out there right now. Dern will never win a belt. Hall will never win a belt. And Kron will never win a belt. This isnt 2001 anymore. Dominant wrestling is better than world class BJJ.

If I'm in charge of their camps its tailored to the strengths they have and using those strengths to try and find weaknesses in the other person's game. But 100 times out of 100 point fighting karate style is no where near the camp.

Please stop being retarded before replying
Marcelius91
#19 Jun 19 2019 01:22pm
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Quote (AnimeA @ 19 Jun 2019 19:58)
Let's just get this out there right now. Dern will never win a belt. Hall will never win a belt. And Kron will never win a belt. This isnt 2001 anymore. Dominant wrestling is better than world class BJJ.

If I'm in charge of their camps its tailored to the strengths they have and using those strengths to try and find weaknesses in the other person's game. But 100 times out of 100 point fighting karate style is no where near the camp.

Please stop being retarded before replying


You must be the kind of guy who can only have a civil conversation with those who agree with you. It will be hard for you to learn and explore new things with this kind of attitude.

There are those who have a traditional, textbook approach, who try to perfect the things that are known to work (Javier Mendez, Rafael Cordeiro, Henri Hooft...). And there are those who are more attracted to novelty and more often look deeper into things where most would say do not work and constantly put the consensus to the test (Firas Zahabi, Din Thomas, Eddie Bravo...). I belong to the latter and I have no problem with either approach. We need both kinds in the MMA community to evolve and learn from each other. But you are just stuck-up. Calling people retarded for having a different perspective. Very immature.

From now on, not going to reply anymore to those who do not have the self-control to keep a discussion civil.

This post was edited by Marcelius91 on Jun 19 2019 01:43pm
KrWWW
#20 Jun 20 2019 02:06am
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AnimeA is right

look at Gracie vs MacDonald

Firas just taught Rory to defend subs

This post was edited by KrWWW on Jun 20 2019 02:09am
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