No I’m saying that 1 action of using multi can yield 9 individual crit hits on monsters. Then you must begin to factor all the variables I mentioned which makes it unrealistic to have a set number in the end. Because you just clicked once but resulted in 9 individual crits. Really that’s it. Don’t let that take away from your testing.

Ah I see what you’re saying now. Sorry, I didn’t realize that there might be confusion on this point, but it actually isn’t obvious, so I’ll explain. It’s not crits per number of times you click your mouse that you want to check, it’s individual melee hits which can result in a crit or noncrit hit. If you did the test using abilities, you would treat each individual damage number separately. Use multistrike on 9 monsters? Record number of crits / 9. Use multistrike on 4 monsters? Record number of crits / 4. Actions is not really necessary to keep track of, only the number of crits out of the max possible number. And there is no reason to suspect that the crit chance of melee abilities would be any different from that of normal melee attacks with the same setup The reason for my original statement about no abilities was to avoid any potential confounding effects just in case there were differences. I don’t believe there are any, and if you think there are, go ahead and post your data or reasons for suspecting that there are, and we can investigate that next

Lemme know if this still isn’t clear or doesn’t make sense to you and I can elaborate further.

This post was edited by BWConformity on Feb 12 2019 08:29pm

My first paragraph in my last post confirms what you have just stated, but, my explanation may have been a little bit void of clarifying this.

Critical Hit chance is based on each individual attack per monster. In this case, Multistrike vs 9 monsters is classed as one(1) action, BUT, each monster gets an individual Critical Hit chance roll.

It doesn't differentiate the test results at all, if you have on average of 10% critical hit chance out of 100 ATTACK actions, you would still get the same results from using Multistrike 5 times vs 9 monsters = 45 critical hit chance rolls and 55 normal attacks on single monsters. i.e 100 attack actions having a 10% critical hit chance.

I think that answers your post, but, I would like to know if I am missing anything.

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Feb 12 2019 08:54pm

I think this pretty well sums up the thought process there

This was how I was thinking of the test as well. Finding a base crit rate should (in theory) provide information that can be applied to abilities and group play. There has been no indication from anything Ive noticed (not recording data just anecdotally) any difference in chance to crit using regular attack vs using an ability besides the obvious number of targets.

I would say the way you are testing that base value is the best way under the current assumption of how abilities work (no effect on crit rate). If someone has reason to believe abilities crit at different rates than normal attacks, I would assume you would be open to the possibility given there is actual data to support such a claim.

New club data from my character LowLvlz at... low levels below
Just two trials of each setup but I think the effects are actually quite obivous even with this small sample size. I'll level up a little more then try to get some big crit %s with high dex and crit strike together

LowLvlz Club Crit Test
Constant conditions->
Barbarian
Explore
No abilities


Lvl 10 - 12
Str 79
Dex 90
Total stats: 169
6 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 13/100
Crit rate: 13%

Lvl 12 - 13
Str 79
Dex 90
Total stats: 169
6 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 17/100
Crit rate: 17%

Avg of 79str 90dex 6crit = 15%

Lvl 13 - 14
Str 98
Dex 34
Total stats: 132
0 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 1/100
Crit rate: 1%

Lvl 14 - 14
Str 98
Dex 34
Total stats: 132
0 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 1/100
Crit rate: 1%

Avg of 98str 34dex 0crit = 1%

Lvl 14 - 15
Str 98
Dex 69
Total stats: 167
0 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 4/100
Crit rate: 4%

Lvl 15 - 16
Str 98
Dex 69
Total stats: 167
0 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 5/100
Crit rate: 5%

Avg of 98str 69dex 0crit = 4.5%

Lvl 16 - 17
Str 79
Dex 91
Total stats: 170
0 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 9/100
Crit rate: 9%

Lvl 17 - 17
Str 79
Dex 91
Total stats: 170
0 crit strike
Lvl 10 Club
Crits/Hits: 11/100
Crit rate: 11%

Lvl 17 - 18
Str 79
Dex 91
Total stats: 170
0 crit strike
Lvl 15 Club
Crits/Hits: 14/100
Crit rate: 14%

Lvl 18 - 19
Str 79
Dex 91
Total stats: 170
0 crit strike
Lvl 15 Club
Crits/Hits: 8/100
Crit rate: 8%

Avg of 79str 91dex 0crit = 10.5%


Combined stats/averages from both club tests I did:
Avg of 79str 90dex 6crit = 15%
Avg of 79str 91dex 0crit = 10.5%
Avg of 119str 125dex 1crit = 10.3%
Avg of 119str 52dex 1crit = 5%
Avg of 98str 69dex 0crit = 4.5%
Avg of 221str 34dex 1crit = 4%
Avg of 98str 34dex 0crit = 1%

@ RED: Would have like to have seen the results with the +1 Critical Strike.
@ BLUE: Would have like to have seen the results without the +1 Critical Strike.
EDIT: Looks like a 50/50 ratio to be honest... but once again I am going on about ratios due to what it states in portals.

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Feb 14 2019 07:17pm

Same here ofc. I'll run those tests when I get the chance. Feel free to do them too if you would like and we can compile them.

Currently it's looking like +crit strike and dex are both working with clubs (Meridius previously said that +crit strike mod might not be working with clubs). I'm also thinking that like what we saw with swords, diminishing returns for dex-based crit are really dropping the crit-effectiveness of dex by ~100 dex. So maybe going from 30 to 100 dex can increase club crit by ~10%. What if going from 100 dex to 200 dex only increases it by 1%? Maybe not at all

Would like to know

This post was edited by BWConformity on Feb 14 2019 07:22pm

I will test with Warhammers of course. Edited my previous post referring to Ratios again... from your tests, the 10% hit chance are close to 50/50. Basically I am just going off of the portal information when ratios were introduced vs 1.20 update:

All melee weapons are now modified by a strength and dexterity combination, rather than pure strength or dexterity.



That could be a factor, but then you would have to jot down your Average damage output to see what is beneficial, we both know that it is better more damage more consistently, but with your 10% hit chance shown there, we should keep it to that set of stats... and then test more Critical Strike items keeping with the stat ratio.

Just my thoughts.

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Feb 14 2019 07:27pm

Stats
Strength: Increases the base damage and *critical hit chance for melee weapons by the ratio for that particular weapon.
Dexterity: Increases the base damage and *critical hit chance for melee weapons by the ratio for that particular weapon.
Vitality: Increases the physical defense for armor. For every 25 stat points you have in vitality, you gain +1 to Life Regen. Every Level Up you will gain an amount of life equal to your base vitality.
Intelligence: Increases the magical defense for armor and base effect for charms. For every 25 stat points you have in intelligence, you gain +1 Mana Regen. Every Level Up you will gain an amount of mana equal to your base intelligence.

* Critical hits are subjected to a diminishing return ratio for base stats.

https://ladderslasher.d2jsp.org/index.php?g=1

This is where I originally read how it worked (from the portal)... However, many of the sections in the same page are outdated. It's also fairly ambiguous as to what this means... It does say critical hit chance (subjected to a diminishing return ratio) for melee weapons by the ratio...

Here is one possible interpretation based partly on that wording and partly on our testing for clubs as an example:

Damage dealt based on ratio 90/10:
0.9 x str
0.1 x dex

Critical chance based on ratio 90/10:
0.9 x dex
0.1 x str

If the diminishing returns were severe enough, especially for str, it's possible that I misinterpreted severe diminishing returns for no-effect of str on crit.

However, in this scenario, there must be no diminishing return effect for individual stats for axes/battleaxes, because both increase crit chance, yet there is no difference in crit chance between 250str/50dex and 150str/150dex... So whether or not the portal statement is outdated, it does not contain all the information we need... hence why we need to do more testing in this topic

This post was edited by BWConformity on Feb 14 2019 07:35pm

Concur to removed portion, read those awhile ago and forgot about them.

Axes/Battleaxes @ 50/50 ratio doesn't have a high Critical Hit chance from our testing, and as we surmised, the higher one stat is, there is an increase of Critical Hit chance. There could be a diminishing return if it was more than 90/10, the only way I could test this hypothesis is with a Guardian 30 str / 10 dex and going above 90 strength. IF, by chance there is a diminishing return from this future test, I might stick to my own hypothesis that 75 / 25 ratio is a good point of reference for Critical Hit chance & Damage.

Based on your tests with clubs (90/10) and reaching on average 10% Critical Hit chance close to a ratio of 50 / 50, we could surmise this as a good reference for Critical Hit chance with this weapon. We would still have to check this with Daggers, as people state that this weapon has a better critical hit chance overall.

I am lost on Swords / Longswords / Staff / Polearm. When I look at my own hypothesis, this would be 90 / 10 ... but your comment is more applicable.

Looks as if more testing is required... as I stated previously, I can do some later on, but, if by chance you do not see me on for like a month or more, it is because I will have no power or internet connection.