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Jan 25 2019 08:11am
Alphastar AI was doing 24minerals probes on the main base before expanding.
https://deepmind.com/blog/alphastar-mastering-real-time-strategy-game-starcraft-ii/

16drones = 13minerals per second
24drones = 16minerals per second


24probes on main base harvest the same as 16probes on main+4drones on expansion
the last, will cost 200more minerals - 187.5goldvalue for the 15supply in nexus - 50supply gold saved on 4drones = 37.5less mineral cost when expand

37.5/0.8 = 48seconds of mining time
so when build 3 drones in main (19total), they start eurning money instanly, when a nexus takes time before invested gold starts eurning


when get workers from 12to16, they function at 100%
when get workers from 16to24 on main, they function at 50%

more impactfull for toss/terran, since zerg uses hatchery to produce creep/army

interesting when do proxy-hatch-swarmhost, or when want to save minerals for tech rushes
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i was doing some funny builds!

1) Muta
pool first into muta rush:+/- 17gass-17pool-17gass-18hatch-19Lair-Spine-Spire-25gass3-save 6larve-6muta rush just pre5min mark-drone-get 3e hatch-gass/spore/spine-1ste queen after5min
Verry effective vs protoss and terran, hits verry fast, and counter eurly harass/all inns, and makes ezz economic damage after, and helps in broodtech-rush.

Its 6Muta only, thats 1200Coins(+400spire+300Lair+225Extractors), thats alot.
I urn it back like this: kill8workers for 400Coins+300Lair use asap+200spire will be used again for corruptor and brood+500 i force missle turrets phoenix or anti-air+200i contain enemy in base and save time+600 i save 50%muta to join later wars = 2200.
So even when i only kill a few workers, i still profit from this, ofc i also take economic damage from rushing tech
And vs filty terran, you need Spire vs BC/medivac/Liberator

2) Zerg vs Zerg
17Hatch-17Pool-Roach-triple spine-(1 queen)-4total hatchery-30total worker-5min push

Well, you spam hatchery, when not even do macro game!
a) enemy sent tier1 zerglings and try to stop it, he think his army is ahead on yours (roach+spine ezz stops it)
b) to spent queen larve without stopping hatchery larve production, you basicly need to bank minerals, using only hatchery larve prevents this, and allow income to be spent insta
c) army production
d) macro backup for after 1ste push


----------------------
Spines are extreamly good against zerglings/hellions
3spines, for 450coins, sounds like alot,
but zergling require zerglingspeed 200 coins and at least 1queen(175coins), and supply 6.25Coins per zergling
if spent double on zergling 900-200speed-175queen / 31.25per zergling incl supply = 16.8zergling

1Spine cost 1 larve
when 150coins of zerglings cost 3 larve and supplylarve and queensupplylarve (1supply=0.125larve)
Spines, reinforced with drones, allow multifrondwar, with minimum micro, for zero supply costs
i Would say, on avg a larve cost 19gold (175queen costs/3larve/3injects) or (275hatchery cost/19gold*11sec larvespamtime+71buildtime)/60sec = 3.8min hatchery uptime
So the first 3min of the game a larve cost double(36gold) and at the 10min mark, a larve only costed 10gold
Since you start with 1 hatchery, you generate gold, to compensate 99coins costing drones (50+12.5supply+36larve cost)

Thats why Alphastar AI was keep building probes from 1ste Nexus.

Thats why you not wana sacrafice units in the eurly game, and build heavy tech units and spines instead.
Thats why, triple hatch opening stronk for economie, it hits faster then queen
Droning in the midgame is sheaper then droning in the eurlygame.
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Jan 29 2019 12:34pm
Lets talk swarmhost!


Quote
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Swarm_Host_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
Defence: 160life 1 (+1)armour
Cost: 100 75 3

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Locust_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
Damage: 10 (+1)
DPS: 23.25 (+2.33)
Defence: 50 life

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Roach_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
Damage: 16 (+2)
DPS: 11.2 (+1.4
145life+1armour
Cost: 75 25 2
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Hydralisk_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
90life
DPS: 20.4 (+1.7)
Cost: 100 50 2


Asume only 50%of swarmhost have locust up in battle, the others have it on cooldown.

then already a swarmhost outdamage a hydra per mineral cost, when it have more then double the hitpoints (160+50 vs 90)
overall a roach is better then a hydra to attack ground units,
for 1 streight army to army fight, 1swarmhost is just as cost effective as 2roach, when it comes to dps and tanking.
when a swarmhost can go solo battles before the fight, to herass and it fights 90%uptime after creation.
when a roach or hydra, fights only 6%of its lifetime after creation


Zerg Health regenerates at a rate of 0.38 points per game second.
So a locust spammer is 100health per 43sec, witch is 2.33 points per game second.


So often, its great to only spam 50%of all locusts and spam the other 50% 18sec after it, when your swarmhost are on creep for example.
When offcreep, when not proxy, when battle not even started yet, you can herass with 100%locust, to overwhelm the enemy army better, or to snipe a nexus/base.
Its pretty decent to use 50%locust, meanwhile attacking with the full army of roach/hydra/corruptor/broods/zergs, to make locust survive and do full damage, whithout getting overwhelmded
Since locust have only 50life, its bad to spam a full locust wave on enemy when defending, and not use the other army.

Corruptors to slow to kill interceptors, but they can be better anti-air then hydra, allowing more roach instead of hydra,
and the roach is your prime tool to buy time for swarmhost, to make battle last as long as posible
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Jan 29 2019 09:35pm
swarmhost broken
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Jan 31 2019 08:10pm

the zerg burst wall, no zerg casualties



just a few broodlords
so i only need 2or3 broodlings alive
to tank together with my roaches/swarmhost
so my locust can land safly for dps (3times more dps then a broodling)
all protecting my hydra/broodlords

my zoo is following my broodlords, i a-clicked my broodlords, i should have a-clicked my army bye now
i released 50%of my locusts to late, i released them all at ones

-----------------------------
when do proxy swarmhost and have spines, i often skip roach and only take hydra
technicly it would be better to not take hydra speed, only hydra range and roach speed,
still, i like hydra speed for mapcrossing and midgame and defend
on the screenshot, my roach are tanking the marines, but some hydra take siegetank damage
Roaches nice in midgame, to engage enemie before locust land, hydra is a bit to expansive for that, in the lategame you have broodlords to engage

So i may need a few games where i not build roaches, just hydra?
This game i opened 9muta, so terran was pretty match behind verry fast!
i Could use muta aswell, to replace hydra/roach, even when they not tank ground only targets, and then my swarmhost are to exposed

anti-air that fly, like vikings and phoenix,etc, are pretty good against muta or corruptor, compared to hydra.
keeping the diversity great allow not to be overwelmed on ground or in air

Often i skip the muta and go streight into hydra/roach/swarmhost, but then i am forced to build a spire for broodlords anywhy, meanwhile i do my midgame locust landings
---------------------------------------------------
So i gone finetune my build some
Maybe i should mass up the Spines/Spores, and pull them to the frond, ones my broodlords arrive.
and skip the roaches, even the hydra
even double swarmhost not allow no other units, so i ofc go broodlords/corruptor, but i may want mutalist

thats alot of coins saved on Roach warden/hydra-den and its upgrades

spines/creep to protect the swarmhost/broodlords
spores to protect the muta
speedy overlords above spines/spores to buffer a-click enemies, saving muta-regen time and locusts-cooldown time
may do air-armour-upgrades for this build, to allow to pull wounded overlords and muta intime

May delay 6min muta attack to a 7min muta attack (spamming at 6min mark), and simply double the spines/spores at home before that time.
Ones my second wave of locust spam in enemy base, i want around the 8.30min mark, a 8to10 spines and spores in frond of enemy base, to lure them away from my economie and to bait them in attacking my swarmhost and 10muta.

thats alot of supply saved, ones i enter the broodlord fase, not that i want that massive amounth of broodlords, they can die pretty fast to be cost effective if not facetanked for them
not sure yet how i gone pull this off! muta not that super good, may need to micro them massively to make them replace roach/hydra, may need more swarmhost and faster broodlord tech


So, nxt game, mass spines/spores/swarmhost/muta into 7fast broodlord
1ste hatch i build at my 5e base location, like i did on the screenshot
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Feb 1 2019 09:06am
So i played Swarmhost/Muta and spines/spores only, with only 1queen, vs all races
about 15games vs all races.

was verry good,
the mobility of muta was verry helpfull, to stop counterattacks, and for fast locusts support
on the other hand, when mass muta, nn broodlords/corruptor anymore, (only to counter BC/phoenix-stalker), and the reason to pick muta was basicly couse of the free spire required for broodlords,
i did not used the muta ones to herass workers, only the swarmhost to herass, and muta to defend
i had some problems in defending my 8spines/spores in frond of the enemy base
----------------------------------
I plan to try Infestor again, instead of muta

If fail to spam locust at 100%uprate, and only do it about 80%of the time, you +/- have same locust uptime from 1 swarmhost as you have infested terran uptime from 1infestor, since infester can buffer up energy and only fail to spam uprate at 100% when get over 200mana.
If infestor only comes in action ones per 4min, it functions at 100%effective energy consumption, and it have a value upto 400coins per 4min of 8sacraficed marines
2 min after infestor is created it have the option to be more cost effective as building marines instead

A swarmhost, have double locust damage as marine, and almost double health as the infestor, more ezz to make it do damage, so i would say, its 100%more cost effective as infested marine, AKA 200coins/1min
So a swarmhost urns it costs back 53sec in combat (no start energy)

however, swarmhost is sheaper and have double dps, but marines shoot in air, are harder to make them attacking things, slower, but you also have Fungal Growth, and swarmhost cost 50%more supply


Not sure if i wana mass on the queens, since i may like spore crawler better, and pureswarmhost vs ground
however, a creeptumor have 50life,
5creeptumors tank as good as 1overlord, and a overlord is 50%effective in cannonfodded, (100coins+12for the larve)*0.5*2per min*3avg tumors created bye 25 energy)/5tumors per overlord = a queen creates 34gold value per 1min
+/-5min after queen is created it +/- urned itself back as a free tankbuilding spammer
i may try 5/6queens one game, no injects, just tumors and static queen defend, maybe some transfuse on spores/spines



So i may go just a tiny lower on the spines and spores at my bases, in the mid/eurly game, and take 3to5queens.
Then i get my infestation pit asap, without injecting, but spending my larve
get 4 swarmhost and attack
get 4 more swarmhost for 8 total, then make stationay defend everywhere, and get 2-3infestors to max mana on them, meanwhile droning like madniss
then 12to20swarmhost, depending on what the enemy has for landforces
then build infestor count/spores
not sure if i need Neural Parasite
Pathogen Glands, requires you to build over6 infestors after the upgrade to be of great use

And then you play like Teemo and Heimerdonker combined!
Run the fck away from all forces! Abandon base and refill mushrooms and turrets

Infestors,
for anti-air, to support spores/queens
to support swarmhost waves, after waves, of attacks on multifrond/free units supports
to support buildings vs ground between bad waves
for AoE damage casting, if micro allows it
for burst
for low micro (ones per 4min) free units


Broodlord not that imba as swarmhost, to cloose range to be considered free units
cost the same as 3 muta, but have 55%of that hitpoints and have near to no mobility.



Then your army becomes the economie

This post was edited by Tommyvv on Feb 1 2019 09:19am
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Feb 3 2019 04:59am
I personally think that you should post replays.
There are certain fallacies with the approach you're making.

Strategies shall be discussed and analysed by posting replays. This methodology will lead you to become a better player.


Do take my post as advice. I'll be glad to analyse your replay and discuss your strategy and potentially refine it.

This post was edited by Destino on Feb 3 2019 05:02am
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Feb 5 2019 11:31am
Quote (Destino @ Feb 3 2019 11:04am)
I am not sure whether liquipedia has been updated fully for LotV.

I do see outdated findings. Do take these findings cautiously.


yes.

outdated mineral income, must be 140%
but gass is 140% aswell
so the %gas compared to%mineral income stays the same


Quote (Destino @ Feb 3 2019 10:59am)
I personally think that you should post replays.
There are certain fallacies with the approach you're making.

Strategies shall be discussed and analysed by posting replays. This methodology will lead you to become a better player.


Do take my post as advice. I'll be glad to analyse your replay and discuss your strategy and potentially refine it.


probably yes!
not sure how to post replays, and my system probably makes it a pain to do so.

i have lots of ways to improve, like my hotkeys and apm, and to implement some lategame units like Lurkers
it just does not sounds fun to improve on thease parts

i also posted alot of tactics in this topic, i not tested fully yet, like the infestors-swarmhost, witch probably is to micro intensive for my lvl.


in HoTS, i had a verry great swarmhost build
and the build included alot of plays, to lead to the swarmhost plays, and to counter the counters after.

This week, i made a creep-hiway asap, to speed up swarmhost herass
Yesterday, i played alot of games, with Nydus Network Swarmhost.
Pretty evil that a Nydus worm only cost 100Coins, and you can serround the enemy base with creep in just 30sec, at the 6min mark, with just a little micro.
Verry great that Nydus somehow provides a Proxy, without sacraficing safe-economie for it

however, even the Nydus swarmhost has disadvantage
when i did, corruptor/hydra/roach/swarmhost/broodlord/muta, enemie not realy had a huge tactic to counter my units
when i did, swarmhost-muta, some enemy tactics, like mass BC, could counter me, but fast corruptor build could fix it. Also, bio can be hard when they outmicro locusts (nydus, however shits on Bio)
when i did, swarmhost-hydra-Nydus, hydra not that good, bad defend, and they occupy time when unload Nydus

Mutalist, despite hard counters like Phoenix or BC, its sinergy amazingly well with swarmhost:
1) Can support locust verry great, because in air and mobility
2) turn-based, they can regen between attacks, and you always do waves of attack with swarmhost
3) defend, again mobility allow to defend, and it can defend swarmhost on the field
4) anti-air, swarmhost not shoot up,
5) ? all ball of muta better then a ball of hydra?
Bad things about muta:
1) hard counters like Thor
2) do you realy need to shoot ground units from air, aka its based on lucust getting overwhelmed bye ground units.
3) micro intensive, when they are not controlled, they split up in combat
4) making groups is now required, since swarmhost are in Nydus (you can not simply select all army for movement, and release locusts waves from manualy selected swarmhost)

Bad things about Nydus:
1) it costs are decent and delay follow up tech pretty hard
2) swarmhost i like in ZvZ, but Nydus makes enemy zerg queen run out to overtake my creep
3) verry OP in early/midgame, but ones war is everywhere, it falls of in the lategame (probably because i am not used to multitasking at multiple fronds via the Nydus network)
4) there is not button that only make swarmhost full of lucust exit the nydus, so it effects you locust cooldown (goals should be spamming locust within 1 sec when they have cooldown)
5) its more based upton attacking building then attacking the enemie army
6) you may require 50to100%more swarmhost, since often locust wave will not be supported bye other army)
7) somehow i tent to delay my 3e/4e base untill after i have 12 swarmhost attacking enemy base
8) ofc you can recall your swarmhost for defend, but the cost of nydus not realy is defensive compared to a creep-hiway with muta

So not sure yet, but i need to improve on the following things:
1) Corruptors to support my muta
2) after the swarmhost-nydus fase, i need to start fighting for my Nydus worms and sent my muta to support my locusts
3) economie and defend at home, instead of overdoing my agression
4) armycontroll, starting with zerg-air, witch nn to be in nydus.

So i think i make 3or4 swarmhost for defend, and tech up fast for that
extra spines/spores at home
get my 3e+4e hatchery/spire before Nydus complete

or

i did a 3hatch opening alot, into spines and Lair,
i may try to do it again, and delay my Lair just a little and go full on spine crawler, instead of using the eurly swarmhost for defend
still refusing to get 4queens pre5min for defend!

This post was edited by Tommyvv on Feb 5 2019 11:35am
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Feb 15 2019 11:28am
I was doing some defensive Muta.

Pretty dope, since muta is more of a offensive suprice attack cheese unit. worker herrass.


In practice, Muta is just better at defending then Hydra.
Hydra needs speed/creep/range to be a great defender and swarmhost support unit, and even then it can be out-micro-ed when clifs get abuced

Muta = 200coins / 12dps / 120life / regen and speed
Hydra = 150coins / 20dps / 90life / requires speed and range upgrade

Phoenix and Thor are hardcounters to muta, because they have 100%to180%more damage to light units.
But swarmhost owns Thor, and Thor comes kinda late.
Phoenix that get good micro, may be a problem for muta, but when use them defensively, they can get supported bye spores, and swarmhost can do economic damage
Hydra may look better vs protoss, but zealot charge counters them

The reason that hydra requires 2upgrades compared to muta, and that you only want 18Hydra, instead of 40===>muta better
18muta>18hydra /// 40hydra>40muta



Terran Bio,
you may think, why trade expensive muta vs marines?
well, thouse marines, have expensive airdropships, witch muta also destroy
if, at 6min mark get all-inned bye terran, when not have swarmhost yet, just 4to8 slow lings supporting your 6to8muta, will wreck terran Bio (slowling can tank better, cost less, then fastlings)

Atm, i rush air vs terran, and build a fast hydra-den vs protoss
But i am considering to get fast air vs protoss aswell and maybe get corruptor support, may do a scout if i need hydra vs carrier-rush or pure toss-air.

Still having some trobles eurly game vs reaper or cheese openings, may need to build that 1queen just a bit sooner
--------------------------------------------------------

1) build hatcheries instead of queens,
enemy can attack thouse hatch, you not care, you have 4to5 of them, allow locust to get cooldown and muta to regen
allow army to be build when get all-inn
you build a 3e hatch so fast, that you can delay your 2nd overlord for another 1min
2) 1 queen, primejob is creep
fast Lair and overlord creep, run queen over map to get hi-way, to secure swarmhost retreat
this goes super fast and provides more profit, vision, mapcontroll, then Nydus
Nydus verry bad when want to release locust at waves of 50%total swarmhost, and spam them everytime they come offcooldown
3) Build Lair atm pool completes
means you want 1gass atm pool starts
getting gass soon, is good, since you have over 18workers before you complete your hatch-first
when time Lair, you not even have 200gas for Spire atm Lair completes,
you want more gass atm your Lair completes anywhy
Offensive muta require more gass, defensive muta require less gass
you can get a 4e/5e hatch even before you take a 4e gass
4) Army
you need swarmhost support and creep for offend
swarmhost can be defend, but not that great
swarmhost can kill units, when defend in a offensive attack
you not want more then 3 swarmhost, before you can attack with thouse swarmhost
you not want to have 10 muta, without swarmhost, you want swarmhost to attack and muta to defend, only attack with muta to punish, not to herass
So you want 6muta, then 3 swarmhost, then 3more swarmhost and 4more muta, then attack, and scout
Then more swarmhost and muta, and techswap to the scout if need to (like corruptor/hydra/spines/spores)
You not realy need broodlords, unless your locust herass not do alot of damage and your facing a counter composition (not that it have alot of counters)
Its ok to get hydra for safty, ones your ahead
5) Counter units
you not realy want roach, unless he goes nexus everywhere and only charge-zealots


So you can tech rush for the defend instead of only using it for cheese-tech-rush
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Mar 3 2019 10:53pm


my 1vs7 Build
Immortal Units, Free Units, Stealthed Free Buildings, Economic combat units.
4min mark, permawar launch 1vs7

Serround the 4 enemies, with creeptumor and Nydus, deny expansions with creeptumors
Meanwhile spamming Locust waves

You not even need alot of swarmhost, but you nn texswap anywhy
So 200 supply of swarmhost, 22 workers, can get 2nd hatch for larve and gass
Overseer speed and 3 overseer, if enemie know how to respond, to Nydus spam harder
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