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ampoo
#121 Jul 13 2018 09:15am
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Quote (IceMage @ 13 Jul 2018 17:01)
Proof?


there is plenty of proof that the german konrad-adenauer-foundation (which is mostly tax money funded and very close to merkels CDU party) send massive amounts of money to ukraine to support the coup, even financing the ultra right wing svoboda nationalists, who engaged in sickening violence on the maidan

plenty of sources on the subject, unfortunately is has never been the discussion that it should have been
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2015/05/03/mit-deutschen-steuergeldern-adenauer-stiftung-mischt-in-der-ukraine-kraeftig-mit/
https://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html


This post was edited by ampoo on Jul 13 2018 09:16am
IceMage
#122 Jul 13 2018 09:27am
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Quote (ampoo @ Jul 13 2018 10:15am)
there is plenty of proof that the german konrad-adenauer-foundation (which is mostly tax money funded and very close to merkels CDU party) send massive amounts of money to ukraine to support the coup, even financing the ultra right wing svoboda nationalists, who engaged in sickening violence on the maidan

plenty of sources on the subject, unfortunately is has never been the discussion that it should have been
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2015/05/03/mit-deutschen-steuergeldern-adenauer-stiftung-mischt-in-der-ukraine-kraeftig-mit/
https://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html


Political groups in Western countries legally giving money to political groups in Ukraine is not "western powers violently overthrowing a pro russian oligarch".
ampoo
#123 Jul 13 2018 09:33am
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Quote (IceMage @ 13 Jul 2018 17:27)
Political groups in Western countries legally giving money to political groups in Ukraine is not "western powers violently overthrowing a pro russian oligarch".


political groups very close to the government giving money to known violent groups to arm themselves and overthrow an elected president is exactly what i said it is
its like germany giving money to antifa so they could attack the white house
Horford
#124 Jul 13 2018 09:36am
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this is entertaining: the Trump Cultists/Fox News Viewers (excuse my redundancy) are outraged at Shepard Smith for explaining what NATO is/does

Rosemary Carr @carr_55
@ShepNewsTeam @FoxNews I’m so sick of Shep’s constant berating of our President. I had to turn his show off once again. #BoycottShepardSmith
3:03 PM - Jul 11, 2018

Richard Koplin @richkoplin
@ShepNewsTeam well here we go again.....it took less than 2 seconds for sheepherder smitty to start bashing the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.......what a biased hater of america you are.....please go over to CNN or even lower (perfect for you) MSNBC.....please please
3:04 PM - Jul 11, 2018

Liberals are the Devil @msbviper
@FoxNews Your libtard host Shep Smith just said @realDonaldTrump INSULTED the NATO countries by calling them out for them not paying their fair share. Give me a break. Whats insulting is them not living up to their share of the cost. Get that idiot Shephard Smith off the air.
3:04 PM - Jul 11, 2018

welton greenlee @GreenleeWelton
@ShepNewsTeam you a liberal ass clown your a trump hating little man go to CNN. Yes NATO assholes do owe us You are so unamerican shep shut ip
3:05 PM - Jul 11, 2018

Debra Chisholm @DebraChisholm2
@ShepNewsTeam please shut your mouth. It's about time someone stood up for THE USA. You're really pathetic.
3:05 PM - Jul 11, 2018

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/shep-smith-explains-nato-fox-news-viewers-fume-berating-president/

thesnipa
#125 Jul 13 2018 11:34am
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Quote (ofthevoid @ Jul 12 2018 07:01pm)
Doubt it. I often pondered why the Chinese look south, east and even west to become more assertive but not north. Russian is very territorial, even though they have more territory than they could ever need they won't give an inch. I mean look at the border disputes Russia has with Japan. To japan those northern Kuril islands would be pretty valuable if we were to just talk about the land mass and natural resources alone, yet the Russians dgaf and won't budge a inch. Only way China is every claiming Siberia is if we reach some global society in which Russia is denuclearized otherwise Russia won't think twice about raining nukes on China in case of invasion.



Totally agree. Russia has been used as a scarecrow to waste trillions on things we don't need. We're moving towards a world that is more peaceful, interconnected and more dependent on one another, more than ever. The Germans are smart, they know Russia has valuable resources which the Germans want and need. It's a symbiotic relationship, but the reason we aren't happy about is we're losing our hegemonic grip. I'm all for it, it's time the US took care of its citizens domestically. I don't want my tax dollars being spent for American bases in Germany or Romania or Qatar or the Philippines.

So many people are crying in here that this give Russia leverage. This is of course true but the other fact is that it also gives Germany leverage on Russia. The path to peace is dependability not isolation. If Russias economy, middle class, voters, fill in the blank is dependent on international trade then you will see less and less confrontations and conflicts compared to if you isolate and impoverish a country and push its people to believe that those foreigners are making us suffer.

Like i said before, European countries are going to inch closer to Russia when it comes to trade and commerce. It's a trade market that's being hampered and most Euros are ready to move on.


historically out opinions on russia haven't been in line all that much, but this fear mongering over NATO with the bullshit threat of boot on the ground from russia is silly. it had a TINY bit more credibility when Crimea and Syria still had a lot of question marks in terms of motivation. that's no longer the case. and its silly to waste the money we are. even more silly for the US to ask for more cash, since we directly profit from making the actual weapons systems. we're selling them out product, and demanding they not only pay a higher price but buy more, all with zero reason.
Black XistenZ
#126 Jul 13 2018 12:18pm
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Quote (thesnipa @ 13 Jul 2018 19:34)
historically out opinions on russia haven't been in line all that much, but this fear mongering over NATO with the bullshit threat of boot on the ground from russia is silly. it had a TINY bit more credibility when Crimea and Syria still had a lot of question marks in terms of motivation. that's no longer the case. and its silly to waste the money we are. even more silly for the US to ask for more cash, since we directly profit from making the actual weapons systems. we're selling them out product, and demanding they not only pay a higher price but buy more, all with zero reason.


the various forms of military spending are essentially state subsidies for the arms companies, and a jobs program for many low-qualified, low-IQ males.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 13 2018 12:19pm
thesnipa
#127 Jul 13 2018 01:01pm
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Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 13 2018 12:18pm)
the various forms of military spending are essentially state subsidies for the arms companies, and a jobs program for many low-qualified, low-IQ males.


of course, i literally build the factories. built 2 new ones last year and have outfitted more than i can count.

just as my stance on automation, on this i'm directly arguing against my own financial gain.
Knoppie
#128 Jul 13 2018 05:52pm
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Quote (IceMage @ Jul 13 2018 01:41pm)
This has always confused me. So apparently Russians were assured privately by the US administration at the time that NATO wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe... but the Russians didn't have the good sense to ask us to write it down somewhere? Not to mention the assurances of one administration are irrelevant when the next administration gets in. Seems like a silly and foolish talking point.



3 mins in. In short: a verbal agreement ~1990, Bush1 and Gorbatjov that NATO would not expand to the East..

He quotes this article which unfortunately is mostly behind a soft paywall: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2014-08-18/why-ukraine-crisis-west-s-fault
Which is also criticized afterwards.. For instance: https://www.leideninternationalreview.com/2017/03/08/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-not-the-wests-fault/

Imo countries should hold to their agreements even made by a previous administration. But this one is getting rather old by now. And right now after the annexation, I actually wish Ukraine would have been part of NATO before that time.
Expanding with the use of soft power to get countries into the fold, is a threat towards parties with different interests, but it's in pale comparison to expanding with military force and annexation of land from a sovereign country.

This post was edited by Knoppie on Jul 13 2018 06:11pm
EndlessSky
#129 Jul 13 2018 06:10pm
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Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 11 2018 08:30)
you'll be using sniffing those russian farts for the foreseeable future.


IceMage
#130 Jul 15 2018 06:44am
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Quote (Knoppie @ Jul 13 2018 06:52pm)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-lKRsmCx4E
3 mins in. In short: a verbal agreement ~1990, Bush1 and Gorbatjov that NATO would not expand to the East..

He quotes this article which unfortunately is mostly behind a soft paywall: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2014-08-18/why-ukraine-crisis-west-s-fault
Which is also criticized afterwards.. For instance: https://www.leideninternationalreview.com/2017/03/08/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-not-the-wests-fault/

Imo countries should hold to their agreements even made by a previous administration. But this one is getting rather old by now. And right now after the annexation, I actually wish Ukraine would have been part of NATO before that time.
Expanding with the use of soft power to get countries into the fold, is a threat towards parties with different interests, but it's in pale comparison to expanding with military force and annexation of land from a sovereign country.


I'm aware of the agreement.... I just don't see how it's relevant. The idea that the US should've been bound by some verbal agreement made in private by one administration seems ridiculous to me... and the Russians at the time were complete idiots if they thought that would stop NATO from expanding.
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