Quote (zarkadon @ 25 Sep 2017 14:51)

The majority of separatists want independence because they think catalonia deserves certain rights and a status they do not have in Spain. It's a bit of a vague answer, because that encompasses a lot of things, but like I said I'd need some time to go into the details as it's important to understand certain historical developments, from the Middle Ages to the 20th century.

This new wave started basically because the centre-right nationalist government had trouble facing the financial crisis, and ordered huge budget cuts. When protests arised, they blamed it on the spanish government ignoring the needs of the catlan people by giving them insuficient funds. Negotiations went on between the regional and national governement, but after no agreement was reached (mostly because both sides were adamant on an issue regarding a constitutional change to allow Catalonia to have their own financial taxing system, completely independent from the national one), the catalan government shifted to separatism.

In reality they did it with hopes that it would put them in a position of negotiation power, and not because they wanted a true independence (obviously that would be a huge backslash for the catalan economy... exiting the EU, losing foreign investment, having to build the infrastructures Spain builds for them, etc... it's not something most politicians or mid-high class and educated people would want to go through, regardless of their national sentiment). It has gotten a bit out hands now though... people who do want an actual independence today hold more power within the ruling parties there, so it's harder to stop the issue with some simple negotiations right now. However, I'm certain that still right now, the separatist movement would cool down significantly if the spanish government gave in to those initial demands.

There are probably two ways of completely solving the issue, and both require changing how the spanish state works:

A short term solution (and the easiest one, as most short term solutions) would be to give in to many of their demands, change the constitution and give Catalonia a special status within Spain (not just in the financial department... also in the legislative, executive, cultural, etc branches). I'm sure the vast majority of separatists will take that. The far-left Podemos party supports this. The centre left PSOE is torn on this subject (their current leader, Pedro Sánchez, wants a moderate and yet to be specified version of this... but the highly powerful andalusian branch of the party is completely against it). The other two main parties, centre-right PP and centre Ciudadanos, are both against it. At least for now. The main issue here is that I guarantee you that a referendum that would bring even more asymmetry among regions would not go through.

A long term solution, would be to leave political negotiations aside and enforce the laws and procedures that are in check, which would result in the Catalan government losing part of its autonomy due to its fraudulent use of it (for instance education, where the official text books literally say things like "Catalonia is a country within the spanish state" and lots of historical inaccuracies like calling the calling the Kingdom of Aragón the Catalan-Aragonese Kingdom, or referencing medieval legendary events which never actually happened involving catalan armies battling, etc). And work towards, "re-educating" the people. Also, the state would need to be much more involved in day-to-day catalan life. For instance, the government should visit much more often, and minor things like the Copa del Rey final, the cyclist Vuelta, etc (which the nationalist catalan governemnts over the decades have asked to be kept outside of Catalonia) should happen there as well, in order to help catalans feel more integrated in Spain. The reason this has never been done, despite the catalan governemnt spending 40 years playing outside the boundaries of spanish laws and the supreme court suggesting that actions should be taken, is that the way the national election system works, catalan nationalist parties have almost always played a keydecisive role in forming the spanish government, and both PP and PSOE have had to appease them and let them do whatever they wanted in Catalonia.

Neither of the solutions are particularly good, and both would be painful in different ways. A sort of balance will probably have to be found. New regional elections would be desirable, as that could open a new scenario if the separatists gain or lose power.

Meanwhile, president Rajoy is pretty much just waiting. Doing what the supreme court tells him to do, but avoiding actions in any direction for the most part. This has led to heavy criticism from both ends of the spectrum... the ones who want laws to be abided say he's not doing enough to enforce the laws, and the ones who want him to make concessions say he doesn't want to negotiate. To be honest, both sides are right. His lack of action over these years is much of the reason things have come to this. Had he either enforced the laws or caved to more of their demands, this probably wouldn't have happened.

I really don't think a cata lan ETA would form. Basque mentality and history is different from catalan history, and since Franco died 42 years ago already, democracy and freedom of speech is part of spanish culture. The idea of killing for your ideas is pretty much inconceivable now. Perhaps we could see a rise in organized vandalism and assaults, similar to the ones carried out by antifa and neonazi groups all around the world. But not a real terrorist problem with bombs and weapons.

Quote (ampoo @ 25 Sep 2017 15:51)

thanks mate

so things basically got rolling like the snowball on a mountain
i gotta say that i thought catalonia had more special rights within spain than they actually do when i read this
i was under the impression that they had more autonomy already

must be the tourist point of view i guess when you see all that catalan stuff and the "mossos" guys of the catalan police

the discussion about finances reminds me a bit of the equalization payment discussion in germany, where there is also a sense of unfair treatment about wealthier states supplying massive funds for the rest (soon to be abolished though, however how several german states plan to continue in the future is beyond me)

since catalonia is a wealthy region, i guess many feel like they provide much more for central state in madrid than they get in return (true or not doesnt even matter here)
rajoy is doing a merkel, sitting things out until others take action :lol:
how separatist bias has made its way into education is truly awful, this is cancer for state and society

the short torm solution will surely lead to spain falling apart, there isnt much holding it together when you give them that much
might as well be completely independent

getting people together sounds much better and big investments into projects to help the people feel appreciated
i dont know enough about the region to suggest something right now though :p

Quote (zarkadon @ 25 Sep 2017 17:34)

They have a pretty important degree of autonomy. Spain is pretty much a federation (unofficially though) of 17 regions with a pretty big amount of autonomy (they control education, healthcare, media, etc), although they must in any case work inside the legal frame the spanish government creates). Catalonia and Galicia have the right to a bit more autonomy because they had it before the Civil War (although Galicia doesn't make too much use of that right, as it has a clear loyalist majority and not much of a nationalist sentiment or a will to be different to the rest of Spain), which is why you see them having their own police and such. And Euskadi and Navarre have an even greater autonomy in the sense that they have their own taxing and financial system and barely contribute to the rest of the country, because when the Kingdom of Navarre (which contained these two basque-speaking regions) became part of Spain centuries ago, they agreed to bend the knee in exchange for that privilege which still stands today. Whether they should still have this right is questioned by some, as they think it's unfair that they get a special treatment.

What the nationalist government of Catalonia was asking for before shifting towards independence, was a similar status to the one the basques have. This required a change in the constitution, because historically only the regions that made up the Kingdom of Navarre (Euskadi and Navarre) are entitled to that privilege, and that is reflected on the constitution. So the spanish government refused to negotiate on that because:

1. They didn't have a historical right to such a status.
2. A change would require a referendum, which had to be approved by the majority of spaniards. It's absurd to imagine the rest of Spain voting to give a region a privilege that would benefit only them, while damaging the rest of the country's economy... so whichever president proposed that referendum would be committing a political suicide.
3. It would be a huge blow for the spanish economy if Catalonia stopped contributing.

And yes, there is a noticeable imbalance between different regions when it comes to the supply of funds. However, Catalonia is definitely not the worst off. The Valencia region, Baleares and Madrid region (in that order iirc) are by far the ones that are worse off with the current financial system. Also regions like Extremadura and Andalucía don't produce much and need the money from those wealthier regions. The thing with the catalan mantra of "Espanya ens roba!" (Spain is stealing from us!) is that they deliberately don't mention the money the spanish government invests in Catalonia in creating infrastructures and the like (say if the spanish governemnts spent millions last year in creating a new railway system, new highways, new scientific facilities that create thousands of jobs, etc in Catalonia... they don't count that). So basically, in terms of supply per capita they are among the worst off (but certainly not at the same level as the other 3 regions I mentioned), but when we take into account how much money the spanish government invests there then they are really just at an average level.

A big issue we have is that the current system is too expensive. We have 17 autonomous "länder", one more than you guys, and yet we have half the population. It's hard to sustain 17 different education/healthcare/etc systems in a single state, and much of the reason why the financial crisis hit us so hard.... everyone wanted/needed their share of money to sustain their governemnts, and the central government just didn't have enough to hand out. The solution would be to either reduce the autonomy of the 17 regions (taking back some of their power to ease costs) or reduce the number of regions in total. The problem is that nobody wants to give up their share (which is very understandable).

Quote (ampoo @ Sep 25 2017 03:49am)

why am i not suprised
typical leftist who is questioning even the most basic concept of the law and calls people who want to uphold it nazis

Quote (sylvannos @ Sep 25 2017 01:04pm)

Funny you should say that considering Catalonia was anarcho-socialist during the Spanish Civil War until fascist Franco backed by literal Nazis took over the country.

Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 25 2017 12:06pm)

Yep.

Murray Bookchin wrote a fantastic book about this.

Quote

A media watch dog says pressure by the Catalan government and social media harassment by "hooligans " of the pro-independence movement is making for a suffocating atmosphere for journalists trying to cover the planned Oct. 1 independence referendum in the northeastern Spanish region.

A report by Reporters Without Borders on Thursday said the regional government's drive to impose its side of the story in local, Spanish and international media has "crossed the red lines."

It added that Spanish authorities' judicial measures against Catalan media to stem propaganda for the referendum have created an atmosphere of extreme tension.

Spokeswoman Pauline Ades-Mevel called on Catalan authorities to come out against the stigmatization of Spanish media, saying it smacked of electoral campaigns such as those of Donald Trump and other "reactionary movements."