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Sep 25 2017 05:17am
This is a simple issue: the constitution (which by the way, the catalans overwhelmingly approved when it was voted 40 years ago) says that the structure and sovereignty of the spanish state is to be decided by the spanish people as a whole. Catalonia can't just vote what they want to do, and the police isn't "repressing democracy", it is doing its job of defending the laws and constitution, which is the very foundation on which every democracy must stand upon.

I wouldn't have any problem with Catalonia voting if a referendum to change the constitution is held, but until then the laws must prevail above everything.

It's not just a matter of the spanish government deciding what to do; the supreme court is demanding actions to be taken and reminding the governemnt has the responsibility of making sure laws are in check. There's a reason why pretty much the whole international community is disregarding the movement, and only the governments of partially recognized states like Kosovo and Nagorno-Karabakh as well as "enemies" of Spain like Maduro's Venezuela are supporting the referendum.

Over all this new wave of separatism is very complex and goes beyond simple matters of "nationalist sentiment" or "wanting more money for the region". I can explain, giving both objective facts as well as my own take on each aspect, if there is serious interest on the subject. But it's probably going to be a somewhat long post and require some time/organization, so I will only do it if there is a demand for it (I really don't mind doing it, but I don't want to waste my time either).

Quote (Leevee @ 25 Sep 2017 12:17)
I know, but what were the results?


80% in favour of independence, with only around a third of "voter turn out" (speech marks are there because people could vote anywhere and there was no control if they voted more than once in different places, and illegal immigrants and people above 16 were also allowed to vote).

This post was edited by zarkadon on Sep 25 2017 05:18am
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Sep 25 2017 05:24am
Quote (zarkadon @ 25 Sep 2017 13:17)
This is a simple issue: the constitution (which by the way, the catalans overwhelmingly approved when it was voted 40 years ago) says that the structure and sovereignty of the spanish state is to be decided by the spanish people as a whole. Catalonia can't just vote what they want to do, and the police isn't "repressing democracy", it is doing its job of defending the laws and constitution, which is the very foundation on which every democracy must stand upon.

I wouldn't have any problem with Catalonia voting if a referendum to change the constitution is held, but until then the laws must prevail above everything.

It's not just a matter of the spanish government deciding what to do; the supreme court is demanding actions to be taken and reminding the governemnt has the responsibility of making sure laws are in check. There's a reason why pretty much the whole international community is disregarding the movement, and only the governments of partially recognized states like Kosovo and Nagorno-Karabakh as well as "enemies" of Spain like Maduro's Venezuela are supporting the referendum.

Over all this new wave of separatism is very complex and goes beyond simple matters of "nationalist sentiment" or "wanting more money for the region". I can explain, giving both objective facts as well as my own take on each aspect, if there is serious interest on the subject. But it's probably going to be a somewhat long post and require some time/organization, so I will only do it if there is a demand for it (I really don't mind doing it, but I don't want to waste my time either).

80% in favour of independence, with only around a third of "voter turn out" (speech marks are there because people could vote anywhere and there was no control if they voted more than once in different places, and illegal immigrants and people above 16 were also allowed to vote).


inb4 fender

thanks for the input and it sounds perfectly reasonable

do they want independence just for its own sake then or more rights from the government in madrid?
do you think there is a way to avoid more trouble?

maybe you understand what i am getting at, i can see some real potential for a "catalan ETA" in the future
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Sep 25 2017 05:46am
- hey guys, i want out of the team.

- oh, sure - let's all vote on it and see if you're allowed to. oh sorry, seems like there's just one person in favour - you have to stay.

- you're kidding me, right? what kind of vote is that? that's ridiculous!

- remember 40 years ago when your father was in really bad shape and coerced into agreeing to those terms? well, tough luck - it's the rules now and not playing by the rules is a slippery slope so this is perfectly reasonable...
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Sep 25 2017 05:49am
Quote (fender @ 25 Sep 2017 13:46)
- hey guys, i want out of the team.

- oh, sure - let's all vote on it and see if you're allowed to. oh sorry, seems like there's just one person in favour - you have to stay.

- you're kidding me, right? what kind of vote is that? that's ridiculous!

- remember 40 years ago when your father was in really bad shape and coerced into agreeing to those terms? well, tough luck - it's the rules now and not playing by the rules is a slippery slope so this is perfectly reasonable...


why am i not suprised
typical leftist who is questioning even the most basic concept of the law and calls people who want to uphold it nazis
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Sep 25 2017 05:59am
Quote (zarkadon @ Sep 25 2017 01:17pm)
80% in favour of independence, with only around a third of "voter turn out" (speech marks are there because people could vote anywhere and there was no control if they voted more than once in different places, and illegal immigrants and people above 16 were also allowed to vote).


To be honest, if that's true then it really cannot be taken as a basis for the people's collective opinion on the matter.
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Sep 25 2017 06:13am
Quote (ampoo @ 25 Sep 2017 12:49)
why am i not suprised
typical leftist who is questioning even the most basic concept of the law and calls people who want to uphold it nazis


wait what now?! seriously, your weird little nazi obsession is really concerning to be quite honest. at no point did i say or even so much as suggest that zark is a "nazi" - absolutely ridiculous.

typical right winger, uncritically following laws without ever questioning how they were established and how much sense they make nowadays. if all ppl were like you, we'd probably still live in tribal societies... see? goes both ways...

but hey, coming from someone who bitches about "fake news" and then is completely unable to refute ANY of the claims he was so triggered by, this shouldn't be a surprise. ofc you would try to misrepresent and generalise my stance as a complete disregard for all laws... your simplistic black and white mentality strikes again...
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Sep 25 2017 06:16am
Quote (zarkadon @ Sep 25 2017 06:17am)
This is a simple issue: the constitution (which by the way, the catalans overwhelmingly approved when it was voted 40 years ago) says that the structure and sovereignty of the spanish state is to be decided by the spanish people as a whole. Catalonia can't just vote what they want to do, and the police isn't "repressing democracy", it is doing its job of defending the laws and constitution, which is the very foundation on which every democracy must stand upon.

I wouldn't have any problem with Catalonia voting if a referendum to change the constitution is held, but until then the laws must prevail above everything.

It's not just a matter of the spanish government deciding what to do; the supreme court is demanding actions to be taken and reminding the governemnt has the responsibility of making sure laws are in check. There's a reason why pretty much the whole international community is disregarding the movement, and only the governments of partially recognized states like Kosovo and Nagorno-Karabakh as well as "enemies" of Spain like Maduro's Venezuela are supporting the referendum.

Over all this new wave of separatism is very complex and goes beyond simple matters of "nationalist sentiment" or "wanting more money for the region". I can explain, giving both objective facts as well as my own take on each aspect, if there is serious interest on the subject. But it's probably going to be a somewhat long post and require some time/organization, so I will only do it if there is a demand for it (I really don't mind doing it, but I don't want to waste my time either).



80% in favour of independence, with only around a third of "voter turn out" (speech marks are there because people could vote anywhere and there was no control if they voted more than once in different places, and illegal immigrants and people above 16 were also allowed to vote).


do it :o

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Sep 25 2017 06:18am
#freecatalonia

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Sep 25 2017 06:18am
Quote (ampoo @ 25 Sep 2017 07:49)
why am i not suprised
typical leftist who is questioning even the most basic concept of the law and calls people who want to uphold it nazis


great post my friend!

Quote (WNxIrvine @ 25 Sep 2017 08:18)
#freecatalonia


#freemahrez

This post was edited by excellence on Sep 25 2017 06:18am
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Sep 25 2017 06:51am
Quote (ampoo @ 25 Sep 2017 13:24)
inb4 fender

thanks for the input and it sounds perfectly reasonable

do they want independence just for its own sake then or more rights from the government in madrid?
do you think there is a way to avoid more trouble?

maybe you understand what i am getting at, i can see some real potential for a "catalan ETA" in the future


The majority of separatists want independence because they think catalonia deserves certain rights and a status they do not have in Spain. It's a bit of a vague answer, because that encompasses a lot of things, but like I said I'd need some time to go into the details as it's important to understand certain historical developments, from the Middle Ages to the 20th century.

This new wave started basically because the centre-right nationalist government had trouble facing the financial crisis, and ordered huge budget cuts. When protests arised, they blamed it on the spanish government ignoring the needs of the catlan people by giving them insuficient funds. Negotiations went on between the regional and national governement, but after no agreement was reached (mostly because both sides were adamant on an issue regarding a constitutional change to allow Catalonia to have their own financial taxing system, completely independent from the national one), the catalan government shifted to separatism.

In reality they did it with hopes that it would put them in a position of negotiation power, and not because they wanted a true independence (obviously that would be a huge backslash for the catalan economy... exiting the EU, losing foreign investment, having to build the infrastructures Spain builds for them, etc... it's not something most politicians or mid-high class and educated people would want to go through, regardless of their national sentiment). It has gotten a bit out hands now though... people who do want an actual independence today hold more power within the ruling parties there, so it's harder to stop the issue with some simple negotiations right now. However, I'm certain that still right now, the separatist movement would cool down significantly if the spanish government gave in to those initial demands.

There are probably two ways of completely solving the issue, and both require changing how the spanish state works:

A short term solution (and the easiest one, as most short term solutions) would be to give in to many of their demands, change the constitution and give Catalonia a special status within Spain (not just in the financial department... also in the legislative, executive, cultural, etc branches). I'm sure the vast majority of separatists will take that. The far-left Podemos party supports this. The centre left PSOE is torn on this subject (their current leader, Pedro Sánchez, wants a moderate and yet to be specified version of this... but the highly powerful andalusian branch of the party is completely against it). The other two main parties, centre-right PP and centre Ciudadanos, are both against it. At least for now. The main issue here is that I guarantee you that a referendum that would bring even more asymmetry among regions would not go through.

A long term solution, would be to leave political negotiations aside and enforce the laws and procedures that are in check, which would result in the Catalan government losing part of its autonomy due to its fraudulent use of it (for instance education, where the official text books literally say things like "Catalonia is a country within the spanish state" and lots of historical inaccuracies like calling the calling the Kingdom of Aragón the Catalan-Aragonese Kingdom, or referencing medieval legendary events which never actually happened involving catalan armies battling, etc). And work towards, "re-educating" the people. Also, the state would need to be much more involved in day-to-day catalan life. For instance, the government should visit much more often, and minor things like the Copa del Rey final, the cyclist Vuelta, etc (which the nationalist catalan governemnts over the decades have asked to be kept outside of Catalonia) should happen there as well, in order to help catalans feel more integrated in Spain. The reason this has never been done, despite the catalan governemnt spending 40 years playing outside the boundaries of spanish laws and the supreme court suggesting that actions should be taken, is that the way the national election system works, catalan nationalist parties have almost always played a keydecisive role in forming the spanish government, and both PP and PSOE have had to appease them and let them do whatever they wanted in Catalonia.

Neither of the solutions are particularly good, and both would be painful in different ways. A sort of balance will probably have to be found. New regional elections would be desirable, as that could open a new scenario if the separatists gain or lose power.

Meanwhile, president Rajoy is pretty much just waiting. Doing what the supreme court tells him to do, but avoiding actions in any direction for the most part. This has led to heavy criticism from both ends of the spectrum... the ones who want laws to be abided say he's not doing enough to enforce the laws, and the ones who want him to make concessions say he doesn't want to negotiate. To be honest, both sides are right. His lack of action over these years is much of the reason things have come to this. Had he either enforced the laws or caved to more of their demands, this probably wouldn't have happened.

I really don't think a cata lan ETA would form. Basque mentality and history is different from catalan history, and since Franco died 42 years ago already, democracy and freedom of speech is part of spanish culture. The idea of killing for your ideas is pretty much inconceivable now. Perhaps we could see a rise in organized vandalism and assaults, similar to the ones carried out by antifa and neonazi groups all around the world. But not a real terrorist problem with bombs and weapons.
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