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Feb 20 2017 03:12pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 20 2017 03:11pm)
So you do agree that the influx of cheap labor depresses wages right?

You do realize that logically you positions don't really make sense. On one hand you're arguing that automation is inevitable and we need to gear up for a welfare state while simultaneously saying that continuous immigration to this country by people that overwhelmingly that will fall under the umbrella of those needing the help is a good thing. It's like we live in a world where all our services are provided free of charge and not contributions from taxpayers.


that's what i said in my post?

i said a continuous immigration to the US is good? it's weird, i read my post again and i talked about Euros and didn't mention continuous anything but hey who knows.
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Feb 20 2017 03:22pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 20 2017 03:55pm)
the eventual universal income will likely bring with it changes that make market forces less powerful. In the same way that a govt. single payer insurance policy has them setting prices based on demand and available funds the universal income world will be in my opinion the same. When the government is the predominant buyer of all goods on behalf of the population they dole it out to demand won't be a thing.

As to the first, are you suggesting we reject automation? Or simply comparing it to the Amish for contrast?


I dont reject automation, it's the predicable outcome of increased technology. I was comparing the Amish here since it's a "society" that intentionally rejects these kinds of devices to find what they feel is an appropriate balance of community and technological adoption. Bill gates proposing a tax on labor saving devices is regressive in a similar manner and at it's core is trying to address that balance.

Since all wants/demands are infinite and supply and resources are finite how is the government going to allocate the goods under UBI to people's wants without causing shortages? Either the income provided is enough to meet peoples desires, or its not enough in which case the monetary market still exists and goods and services are still subject to the laws of supply and demand. How many steak dinner's does Uncle Sam allow me to have?
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Feb 20 2017 03:25pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 20 2017 02:12pm)
that's what i said in my post?

i said a continuous immigration to the US is good? it's weird, i read my post again and i talked about Euros and didn't mention continuous anything but hey who knows.


The welfare state can only continue as long as it's finite in the number of people it's providing services to. One thing i can't really comprehend is the liberal parties in the western world, historically associated with representing the interests of poor people continue to peddle globalism and removal of national borders. It makes not a shred of sense to me. How are you helping your poor when you want to import more poor people further straining the safeguards that keep your poor afloat?

The poor maid living in San Francisco legally isn't getting any favors when the state allows illegal labor in her field. Instead of her wages going up because the demand is higher than the supply, her wages remain stagnant because we've decided that illegal labors is okay because after all, why pay the poor more when we can bring other poor people and keep the wages fairly low.
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Feb 20 2017 03:29pm
Quote (Master_Zappy @ Feb 20 2017 03:22pm)
I dont reject automation, it's the predicable outcome of increased technology. I was comparing the Amish here since it's a "society" that intentionally rejects these kinds of devices to find what they feel is an appropriate balance of community and technological adoption. Bill gates proposing a tax on labor saving devices is regressive in a similar manner and at it's core is trying to address that balance.

Since all wants/demands are infinite and supply and resources are finite how is the government going to allocate the goods under UBI to people's wants without causing shortages? Either the income provided is enough to meet peoples desires, or its not enough in which case the monetary market still exists and goods and services are still subject to the laws of supply and demand. How many steak dinner's does Uncle Sam allow me to have?


the idea of a UBI with supply/demand intact is ludicrous for the exact reasons you list. It would tear itself apart. UBI is the end of freedom, because it is only tenable with no wants of the public taken into account.

This is something that means the end of the constitution, the end of America as we know it. The good news, if you can call it that, for those constitutional believers, is that this won't be instant. It will be the result of decades or even a century of shortages etc. based on the wants of the public on a limited income with no means to bolster it. The will of the people for freedom will slowly be starved out of them until they willingly join the party for a heel of bread and a standard issue cot. Eventually it will become too much and the balance will shift, which could coincide with some sort of worldwide government power controlling the demand of the still developing world countries to keep the economy from collapsing. Essentially the US will get paid to sit back while we industrialize the last corners of the globe.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 20 2017 03:25pm)
The welfare state can only continue as long as it's finite in the number of people it's providing services to.


this is nonsense based on current ideas of productivity, demand, human capital, tax code, etc. None of these things are constitutionally protected much less inherent truths throughout the world.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Feb 20 2017 03:32pm
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Feb 20 2017 03:36pm
People are worried about robots being able to program other robots in time

Meanwhile we have automated cars slamming into telephone poles
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Feb 20 2017 03:38pm
Quote (tonerbond @ Feb 20 2017 03:36pm)
People are worried about robots being able to program other robots in time

Meanwhile we have automated cars slamming into telephone poles


Real question, do you believe that automated programming has already begun to get automated?

or do you just not know how to make a snowman?
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Feb 20 2017 03:41pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 20 2017 01:38pm)
Real question, do you believe that automated programming has already begun to get automated?

or do you just not know how to make a snowman?



No im sure robots programming robots (scripts?) are a thing

I ment more in line with a terminator type rise
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Feb 20 2017 03:42pm
This is why we need to boycott science.
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Feb 20 2017 03:42pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 20 2017 02:29pm)
the idea of a UBI with supply/demand intact is ludicrous for the exact reasons you list. It would tear itself apart. UBI is the end of freedom, because it is only tenable with no wants of the public taken into account.

This is something that means the end of the constitution, the end of America as we know it. The good news, if you can call it that, for those constitutional believers, is that this won't be instant. It will be the result of decades or even a century of shortages etc. based on the wants of the public on a limited income with no means to bolster it. The will of the people for freedom will slowly be starved out of them until they willingly join the party for a heel of bread and a standard issue cot. Eventually it will become too much and the balance will shift, which could coincide with some sort of worldwide government power controlling the demand of the still developing world countries to keep the economy from collapsing. Essentially the US will get paid to sit back while we industrialize the last corners of the globe.



this is nonsense based on current ideas of productivity, demand, human capital, tax code, etc. None of these things are constitutionally protected much less inherent truths throughout the world.



Not sure what you mean by the "United States" if you mean the people then you're wrong. The United States will get paid to sit back only as long as it remains a profitable market. The corporations that largely control much of the world wealth (and continue to centralize that wealth) don't have much loyalty to a country or feels.

My statement is not nonsense, it's simple economics. You can't support 200 million people living on welfare when the system is at capacity at lets say supporting only 50 million. To think that corporations will sacrifice profit margins and basically subsidize us to get fat & lazy is far fetched.
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Feb 20 2017 03:48pm
Quote (IceMage @ Feb 20 2017 03:42pm)
This is why we need to boycott science.


A new dark ages couldn't hurt. Purge the wicked!
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