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Jun 7 2011 03:14pm
Quote (Jackalkix @ 7 Jun 2011 23:12)
can you explain why the 67 ias followup 2frame kick bp cant be reached?


because he didnt think on beast!
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Jun 7 2011 03:47pm
Quote (avinir @ Jun 7 2011 04:41pm)
i think caduceus is a mistake, since i had a kicker [ really bad one ] long long time ago..
and the range SUCKED. you really can see a difference here in this specific class,
i think this guy deserves a STICKY, no such good kicker based guide on jsp that iv seen..


- that's my only question about this build, since the range is quite important [ or not ? ]
i don't remember using enigma, so maybe its not that important while u tele lock ?

thumbs up.


Atm it isnt worth a sticky
Lots of things its missing

Zietchiek linked me to a kicker guide at one point
It was perfect but unstickied for some reason
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Jun 8 2011 03:44am
Quote (ranorn @ Jun 7 2011 11:47pm)
Atm it isnt worth a sticky
Lots of things its missing


says who :)

i think its 100 % worth it.
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Jun 9 2011 12:51pm
Quote (Syoniss @ Jun 7 2011 06:36pm)
Since you didnt added it:

Beast can be used for max ias setup - used in War Spike or Caduceus will give @ least 10 ias more than ba.

Phoenix can be used it will give nice stacker + huge ed wich adds massive kick dmg (usefull legit absorb).


--> Its for non block sorc owning!

beast sucks for kicksins imo. doesn't raise damage all that much and personally I think BoS works out much better for w/s setups since you need to sidestep stuff so much and you already have dr and ways to stack res on w/s.
also for owning non block (or block) sorcs, why not just c/c? if they drop dead from beast+phoenix I can see them dropping dead from c/c as well.

Quote (Syoniss @ Jun 7 2011 09:07pm)
as i remeber right kick = range 1. @ least you could use beast ba ofc! but --> look @ claws range + wizzy range eq.
yes, I already said: I like the guide but as i said - its a way for killing sorcs very eZ.
the differnce is that i reach max ias frame + rly heavy kick dmg, more than his setups show so far. (Looks like its mostly based on OW)

and i can answer you aswell because i have a kicker aswell >_> i dont feel an high importance of range because i tele lock always.

btw the wizzy idea for kicker is great i think i will put that on mine aswell.
kick range = weapon range.
doesn't really matter much since you use the weapons for the mods on it and doing teletalons you are at melee anyway.
and yes, wizzy is great. although it's damage is a bit lacking compared to fleshie or dweb vs most opponents. I used wizzy a lot early on but ended up using it just vs cold sorcs in the end.

Quote (Jackalkix @ Jun 7 2011 09:12pm)
can you explain why the 67 ias followup 2frame kick bp cant be reached?

the 2 frame followup was never possible. the rumor was due to some wrong ias charts by jrichard (who is god of assassin frame data) that he corrected later, but the rumor persists.

Quote (testic @ Jun 6 2011 09:19pm)

I disagree about LS.
heh, try it out for a while and you'll wonder how you ever played without it. it's really really good to mix up ls/wof in stunlocks. kinda natural to me having played LS trappers and using ls/wof mix on ghosts. I did start out with wof only on my early kicksin builds but really having both types of stun traps really helps. I highly advise you respec for that 1 point LS. it does wonders.

Quote (ranorn @ Jun 7 2011 09:47pm)
Atm it isnt worth a sticky
Lots of things its missing

Zietchiek linked me to a kicker guide at one point
It was perfect but unstickied for some reason

Why thank you. ^^

I think this guide is nice, I don't agree with everything 100% and I really really like 65fcr w/s options that aren't wizzy and testic doesn't mention those since he uses wizzy/65.
also some stuff he mentioned Im like "ehh, its really not that great" but then again I did have malice and other stuff stashed on my east nl kicksin build for the longest time. actually a lot of those items I ended up never using at the end I had stashed for a long while. Testic's stash setup kinda reminds me of what I had in my stash back ~5-6 years ago before I started playing around with "optimal" d2pk setups and bringing that knowledge to my east kicksin. a lot of the stash choices are kinda like "meh, its not really needed" and "this isn't really the best" but yet I used a lot of this stuff myself so it's definitely workable for bnet play if you are looking to just mess around and have fun vs players.

I do think this guide is lacking in some ways but its nice for people looking to build kicksins for casual pubbing.
needs 65fcr w/s setups, really should mention fools claw for c/c (ar bonus is not displayed on lcs), and really needs to say 20 hard points in mb, not "10+"
also I'd mention widow just cause I think it's really gawdlike on kicksins cause bowsins share the same build and gain benefits from kicksin weapon switching and help out with bad kicksins matchups, but that may just be me. <.<
also to remember, there are many variants of kicksins that are viable. this is but one person's build. same as mine is just my build. different players can find success with different build variants.

comparing this to his past guide, I think testic has grown as a player, and this guide shows it.
@testic: I think Im a bit less critical now since Im kinda out of d2 at this point, a few years ago I probably would have flamed you for every little thing I didn't agree with, but you have a fun build and even though I don't agree with all of it.. keep having fun with it.
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Jun 9 2011 04:37pm
Quote (Jackalkix @ 7 Jun 2011 22:12)
can you explain why the 67 ias followup 2frame kick bp cant be reached?

I can't, but this guy can: (note, I made it really small cos it's a lot of reading, maybe you want to copy and paste it somewhere, or read it here: http://e.domaindlx.com/JRichard/D2/aas22/dtaloninfo.html)
Quote
Next, I want to explain why it is not possible to get a 2 tick kick out of Dtalon. This has been debated over and over since patch 1.10 came out and far more people began using Dtalon. The majority of people playing Dtalon assassins on bnet still believe they can get 2 tick kicks out of Dtalon. So, let's look at this. First of all, I'll just run through the first part of a Dtalon attack with the maximum increment value you can get. Remember, the value of the (base+EIAS) part of the increment equation is capped at 175. This means we can find the fastest speed Dtalon is capable of if we just figure the increment with 175 put in place of this part of the equation.

Increment_value = AnimationSpeed * (base + EIAS) / 100 = 256*175/100=448

So, 448 is the highest value we can get for the increment with Dtalon. We won't get this animation to play any faster than this. Let's run through the first kick of a Dtalon attack with this as our increment.

Game tick 1
counter is incremented, counter = 448
is counter >=3328? No
Aframe 01 is shown
is counter >=1024? No

Game tick 2
counter is incremented, counter = 896
is counter >=3328? No
Aframe 03 is shown
is counter >=1024? No

Game tick 3
counter is incremented, counter = 1344
is counter >=3328? No
Aframe 05 is shown
is counter >=1024? YES
more actions needed?

Stop here. As you can see, even at the highest increment value you can have, it took 3 ticks to get to the point where the counter is rolled back and the next kick is started. Given the cap on the (base + EIAS) portion of the equation, it's impossible to attain 2 tick kicks. So how did it get so widely reported that it was possible to attain 2 tick kicks? I've given that answer already, it's just been spread out across everything I've posted so far.

At the end of most of the animation walkthroughs I given so far has been a line along these lines:

“start next animation on this tick.”

The tick where the terminating value is reached isn't counted in the speed of an attack animation. The equation I ended my last post with reflected this by subracting one at the end of the equation.

fpa = {(256*DrawnFrames) / [AnimationSpeed*(base + EIAS)/100]}-1

If that equation is applied to Dtalon's multiple kicks, it shows that 2 tick kicks are possible. However, look again at the end of the short Dtalon examples I've listed:

Game tick 4
counter is incremented, counter = 1024
is counter >=3328? No
Aframe 04 is shown
is counter>=1024? YES
More actions needed? YES
counter is rolled back to 0

Although the counter is rolled back to zero on this tick, the next animation for the next kick does not start on this tick, it starts on the next one. Thus, there is no need to subtract 1 at the end. Simple error, really. Unless one runs through the data as I just did for you or did some speed testing at or near the maximum increment value, it wouldn't be something you would really realize. I wish I had been the one to notice this all, but I wasn't. Brianc84 did a lot of testing after I posted the c/c attack speed basics document and found this answer.



Quote (Ziecheik @ 9 Jun 2011 19:51)
really should mention fools claw for c/c (ar bonus is not displayed on lcs)

I agree, I should mention how these things apply but do not display.

Quote (Ziecheik @ 9 Jun 2011 19:51)
and really needs to say 20 hard points in mb, not "10+"

It is really a matter of choice, personally I do max it, but some people may prefer to spend the points elsewhere, perhaps putting more points in weapons block, for example.

Quote (Ziecheik @ 9 Jun 2011 19:51)
also I'd mention widow ...

I did indeed mention it (and it is great).

Quote (Ziecheik @ 9 Jun 2011 19:51)
@testic: I think Im a bit less critical now since Im kinda out of d2 at this point, a few years ago I probably would have flamed you for every little thing I didn't agree with, but you have a fun build and even though I don't agree with all of it.. keep having fun with it.

Thanks Ziecheik, you already flamed my build a while back lol. But you're right, it's all about having some fun, and this is one of the most fun chars I have made.
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Jun 9 2011 04:49pm
Quote
I did indeed mention it (and it is great).
oh whoops my bad. >.> do mention weapon switching to add mods of active weapon (fleshripper 75% ow/slow or dweb -res) to guided arrows. also one weird thing to note is ias calculators show guided arrow capping out in ias without much ias but I found with 08 valk + shael'd widow + bos I hit a faster bp. only tested in 1.10 based patch though.

Quote
Thanks Ziecheik, you already flamed my build a while back lol. But you're right, it's all about having some fun, and this is one of the most fun chars I have made.
:bouncy:

on that note:
Quote (testic @ Jun 9 2011 10:37pm)
It is really a matter of choice, personally I do max it, but some people may prefer to spend the points elsewhere, perhaps putting more points in weapons block, for example.
its not a personal choice. its a pvp sin. specifically a pvp kicksin that doesn't have skill points tied down by synergies. it needs to be 20 mindblast. 19 is not acceptable. putting points in weaponblock instead is silly and novice


>.>
<.<

<3

This post was edited by Ziecheik on Jun 9 2011 04:50pm
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Jun 9 2011 06:34pm
Im just wondering, im not a pro at sin at all, but id like to try a kickersin eventually
wouldnt CoA be a better option than andy and all the helm listed ? you can get the ias with 2sock jewel + other stats
was curious why andy woudl be better than CoA
:)
thanks for answer, and nice guide
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Jun 9 2011 07:27pm
Quote (Holg @ Jun 9 2011 08:34pm)
Im just wondering, im not a pro at sin at all, but id like to try a kickersin eventually
wouldnt CoA be a better option than andy and all the helm listed ? you can get the ias with 2sock jewel + other stats
was curious why andy woudl be better than CoA
:)
thanks for answer, and nice guide


Because of fade coa isnt really needed
Guillaumes is a much better choice
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Jun 9 2011 07:44pm
Quote (testic @ 6 Jun 2011 21:19)
The reason is that then other equipment would have to be changed around in order to maintain the FCR breakpoint, maybe I should have made that clear in the guide.




Thank you, you;re right, this one is more of a guide!

I do indeed max mind blast, and suggest others do the same.

I disagree about LS.

I think you're right about keeping cat's eye stashed, after all it's only a single slot. But overall I prefer HL due to the res!


1 pts into ls, and you're sure that the medium@java strategy become a easy.

And I don't think about the other potential use of it.
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Jun 10 2011 01:57am
Just a question, doesn't grief adds damg to your damg from kick?
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