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d2jsp Forums > Diablo II > Diablo 2 Discussion > Legit Dueling > East Nl Sorc Vs. Sorc Dueling Ladder > Version 2.0
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Jun 14 2018 04:21pm
This ladder is nothing without me.
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Jun 14 2018 07:32pm
I want to suscribe for ladder

got a 200 fber pure vita
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Jun 20 2018 08:03pm
Svs/gm
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Jun 20 2018 08:12pm
Who here wants sop to be gm on an ES sorc as long as the ES sorc doesn’t have over 80 fire resist?
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Jun 20 2018 08:21pm
Quote (Garciaparra @ Jun 20 2018 10:12pm)
Who here wants sop to be gm on an ES sorc as long as the ES sorc doesn’t have over 80 fire resist?


This is fine with me, meets the current requirements. If a s/s is needed then so be it.

Edit: Curious what you think though, are you for or against and why?

This post was edited by Stories on Jun 20 2018 08:23pm
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Jun 20 2018 08:46pm
Quote (Stories @ Jun 20 2018 10:21pm)
This is fine with me, meets the current requirements. If a s/s is needed then so be it.

Edit: Curious what you think though, are you for or against and why?



Im against it for many reasons. It hasn’t been allowed since Es Sorcs haven’t been able to use 10%, been years. No one complained. Find different ways to get more life. I had a 3k/6k 79 Es without it it’s not hard to do.

One could argue its use vs a light sorc but otherwise it just opens up a way for abuse.

People willl abuse it, cause drama and we don’t have a need for that as we get enough of that as it is. Screen shots are a burden enough

Nothings changed in game that affects an ES sorc to need for a change imo.



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Jun 20 2018 09:04pm
Quote (Garciaparra @ Jun 20 2018 10:46pm)
Im against it for many reasons. It hasn’t been allowed since Es Sorcs haven’t been able to use 10%, been years. No one complained. Find different ways to get more life. I had a 3k/6k 79 Es without it it’s not hard to do.

One could argue its use vs a light sorc but otherwise it just opens up a way for abuse.

People willl abuse it, cause drama and we don’t have a need for that as we get enough of that as it is. Screen shots are a burden enough

Nothings changed in game that affects an ES sorc to need for a change imo.


You make a good argument, would like to hear some input from other users.
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Jun 21 2018 12:04am
Quote (Garciaparra @ Jun 20 2018 08:46pm)
Im against it for many reasons. It hasn’t been allowed since Es Sorcs haven’t been able to use 10%, been years. No one complained.


Just because no one has complained doesn't mean that this issue won't ever be brought up.

"Es vs Vita duels: Es may use up to 5% maximum resistance, or a absorb item not over 20%, but Vita can still still use up to 10% max resistance or 1 dwarf star/vex rune."

The rules clearly state that one may choose to maximize their resistance up to an additional 5% of the 75% stock cap point and does not indicate that it is specific to any item OR use a absorb "item" not over 20%.

Quote (Garciaparra @ Jun 20 2018 08:46pm)
Find different ways to get more life. I had a 3k/6k 79 Es without it it’s not hard to do.


Here are some possible options for ES sorc vs fire:
note: there maybe more options that I have not tested and each build may vary.

I've found a way to maximize life and man and that's by using an SOP. While capping fire res to 80% and using SOP I'm able to maintain 78% es, no chance to trigger fhr w/ es up, and gain +/- 595 mana allowing me to trade in a duel more effectively instead of playing passive.

Using a dwarf - puts me at 77% es, allows a chance to trigger fhr, and drops mana down to a total of +/- 4,950

Using waterwalks - maintains 78% es, lose 10% move speed/ 10% fhr/ fire resits/ and mana from Es boots dropping mana down to a total of +/- 5,053. Thus, this also requires a new hat to make up the fire resits loss from boots.

Not changing anything - es remains the same, life/ mana remains the same, takes in more damage to health and allows for a chance to trigger FHR with es up. FHR triggers once hp loss is >/= 165 (tested and verified from reference from one of Legen's posts)

- Also please show me how to build this easy 3k/6k Es while maintaining 75% res, 79% Es, and good fire power.
- Can't use mana pots at 79% either.

Quote (Garciaparra @ Jun 20 2018 08:46pm)

One could argue its use vs a light sorc but otherwise it just opens up a way for abuse.


SOP allows for less gear swaps, simply swapping es boots to light res and be done.

There will always be some bm players that will try to abuse this, but it also hurts those who are GM and won't abuse it. Abuse will rise anywhere if there's no or lack of enforcement. People who abuse it shouldn't be on the ladder anyways right? Same goes with those who over stack more than 450 cr. vs a cold sorc.? It's not like we don't know how many shots it takes to kill someone at 450 cr. Was this ever enforced or brought up? If gear checks/ s/s are required than so be it.

Quote (Garciaparra @ Jun 20 2018 08:46pm)

Nothings changed in game that affects an ES sorc to need for a change imo.


Correct, the rules and game play are fine. It doesn't mention anything about banning SOP for ES sorc the way that it's interpreted.

Proof of damage testing: as you can see below the avg damage is very close due to the discrepancy of hitting max or min dmg.



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Jun 21 2018 05:32am
i don't see a good reason to disallow sop on es sorc, other than a preference for not changing the rules. the same complaints Garciaparra@ make can also be made against some other the existing rules.

tbh, just like Truonk@ said, the current rules, as written, *allow* sop on an es sorc as long as FR <= 180. so hypothetically if i had built an es sorc yesterday i would have used a sop and been pretty surprised & confused when anyone told me it wasn't allowed.

the current "no more than 450CR against a cold sorc" rule exists, yet it can also be abused. in practice games, i have _accidentally_ broken this rule before and didn't even notice it myself! my vs cold setup using exactly 53CR from scs in order to get exactly 450CR total, and one time i misclicked when swapping scs and had 452CR.

at least it's possible for the es sorc to quickly check their FR via the character screen. and at least it's possible to somewhat-enforce* the "no more than 180FR on an es sorc with sop" rule via a single screenshot of the character screen. neither of those properties hold for the "no more than 450CR against a cold sorc" rule, yet it still exists.

similarly, the current "no more than 55 single res from scs" rule also exists and also can be abused and there's no way to somewhat-enforce it via a single screenshot. actually, i would be willing to bet 420fg that someone has broken this rule in a ladder match before. it's a pretty dumb rule imo (as in, it's easy to justify breaking it if you're a cheater) and it's very simple to break by having lots of life/singleres scs. afaict, all this rule does is punish poor people by requiring them to have decent enough gear where 55 single res from scs is sufficient. as an extreme example, in a matchup vs a cold sorc all this rule does is make a vs cold setup a lot more expensive than it does otherwise. i don't see the reason to have a rule that doesn't change gameplay but instead increases the fg needed to be viable.

in summary, for the sake of consistency (both with existing rules and the way the current ruleset is written) i don't see why sop on an es sorc should be disallowed.

*i say "somewhat" because a cheater can swap gear before taking the screenshot. to make this more foolproof, you'd have to e.g. require the screenshot be taken in the moor and have it be the opponent's responsibility to spot the cheater going back to the stash to swap gear.
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