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#91
Jul 23 2010 04:01pm
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Jul 23 2010 01:53pm)
Because God created the universe and he alone sustains it, therefore everything that occurs is an extension of himself, and, being that he is all-knowing, he had to be the cause and knower of all events; past or present.


The mind of God has perfect understanding of all of his children. He know what you will pick based of a flawless knowledge of you in general. If I knew you preferred French Onion soup over Potato Leek than the prediction I make would be pretty accurate, however I would not have an understanding of a wild card trait that could appear in reasoning. For example, how often you think "While I love French Onion, I prefer Potato today." God has the knowledge, he knows more about you than you know about yourself. At least, I think that is how a religious person would explain it.


It's kind of like viewing the future, just because you know what someone is going to do doesn't mean the freedom of choice for that individual is lost.
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#92
Jul 23 2010 04:01pm
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Jul 23 2010 10:00pm)
This sums up what I've been saying.

God says X will happen therefore nothing I could possibly do can change X from happening.


God says X will happen based on the knowledge that you willed X to happen.
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#93
Jul 23 2010 04:04pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Jul 23 2010 10:01pm)
God says X will happen based on the knowledge that you willed X to happen.


God pre-ordains X will happen before I have the ability to make my choice in general, thus I've never had free will, I am simply coasting through his design. My humanity and my role in this thing is incidental.

Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jul 23 2010 10:01pm)
The mind of God has perfect understanding of all of his children. He know what you will pick based of a flawless knowledge of you in general. If I knew you preferred French Onion soup over Potato Leek than the prediction I make would be pretty accurate, however I would not have an understanding of a wild card trait that could appear in reasoning. For example, how often you think "While I love French Onion, I prefer Potato today." God has the knowledge, he knows more about you than you know about yourself. At least, I think that is how a religious person would explain it.


It's kind of like viewing the future, just because you know what someone is going to do doesn't mean the freedom of choice for that individual is lost.


God can know every aspect of my character, my desires and all of that but that doesn't mean that I do not retain the ability to perform an action contrary to all of those things. If I hadn't had the capacity to do something like this, independent from my characteristics then I am not free, I am merely a sentient pawn.

As for the smaller sentence I believe it does mean the freedom of choice is lost, and Nihlathak and I have been arguing that for a few pages.

This post was edited by Kamahl16 on Jul 23 2010 04:06pm
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#94
Jul 23 2010 04:05pm
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Jul 23 2010 10:04pm)
God pre-ordains X will happen before I have the ability to make my choice in general, thus I've never had free will, I am simply coasting through his design. My humanity and my role in this thing is incidental.


How does God pre-ordain that X will happen if the occurence of X is based off of the knowledge of your free will?

How does God knowing what will happen = God forcing things to happen?

This post was edited by Handcuffs on Jul 23 2010 04:05pm
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#95
Jul 23 2010 04:05pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Jul 23 2010 05:01pm)
The actions of robots are programmed though.

He should absolutely be able to predict every action of mine with 100% certainty if he is omniscient.

If there's a "definite course of action that you will take which is predetermined" then what do you feel this is based on?

If God knows you will pick X, what do you feel it is based on? If it's programmed, then it's God's will that it is based on, which would be a violation of free will. If it's merely the ability to see the future, then it's based on your free will still. You free will remains in tact whether it be within the present or the future. To say that you can't pick Y is to say that you had any intention of picking Y in the first place, which is an impossible scenario because you're effectively saying that you wish to be able to pick both X and Y at the same time in a case where only one can be chosen.


As I've said, saying someone is able to see the future with a hundred percent certainty means that the future is predetermined along with the actions of the people in it.

The actions of good robots are able to be "predicted" depending on what inputs they're given by their environment with a 100% certainty. That's why if someone is able to predict what you will do with 100% certainty, then it makes no sense to me to say that you have free will, because your actions were predetermined by how you were constructed and the input given by the environment into your brain.
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#96
Jul 23 2010 04:05pm
Quote (Nihlathak @ Jul 23 2010 10:05pm)
As I've said, saying someone is able to see the future with a hundred percent certainty means that the future is predetermined along with the actions of the people in it.

The actions of good robots are able to be "predicted" depending on what inputs they're given by their environment with a 100% certainty. That's why if someone is able to predict what you will do with 100% certainty, then it makes no sense to me to say that you have free will, because your actions were predetermined by how you were constructed and the input given by the environment into your brain.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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#97
Jul 23 2010 04:06pm
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Jul 23 2010 02:04pm)
God pre-ordains X will happen before I have the ability to make my choice in general, thus I've never had free will, I am simply coasting through his design. My humanity and my role in this thing is incidental.


Perfect understanding of individual will ensure exact predictions on behavior.
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#98
Jul 23 2010 04:07pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Jul 23 2010 10:05pm)
How does God pre-ordain that X will happen if the occurence of X is based off of the knowledge of your free will?

How does God knowing what will happen = God forcing things to happen?


He pre-ordains everything and "X" happens to fall into this axiom of "everything."

Nothing can happen without God sustaining and guiding the actors to do what it is that they do, and in so doing it is not you who makes a choice because those actions you perform must conform to God's design.

AFK -- shower.

Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jul 23 2010 10:06pm)
Perfect understanding of individual will ensure exact predictions on behavior.


It only means God's prediction will likely be correct, it doesn't mean that it will be absolutely correct 100% of the time.

This post was edited by Kamahl16 on Jul 23 2010 04:08pm
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#99
Jul 23 2010 04:10pm
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Jul 23 2010 10:07pm)
He pre-ordains everything and "X" happens to fall into this axiom of "everything."

Nothing can happen without God sustaining and guiding the actors to do what it is that they do, and in so doing it is not you who makes a choice because those actions you perform must conform to God's design.

AFK -- shower.



It only means God's prediction will likely be correct, it doesn't mean that it will be absolutely correct 100% of the time.


Again, like I said to Nihl, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

We're just gonna' go in circles about how I don't think it violates free will and you do. :D
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#100
Jul 23 2010 04:13pm
ITT: Handcuffs fails to understand the omniscience/free will contradiction.
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