If the future was contingent on our free will, and we truly had free will, then no one would be able to predict what the future would hold. The fact that God knows exactly what we will do implies a contradiction when juxtaposed to saying that we have free will.

If it is "free" then nobody should be able to tell what we will do 100% of the time. If I, for example, picked a random # that not even I would know, and God somehow knew I would pick that #, then I never had free will to begin with.

i.e. in other words it's constrained by some unknown factor, which is known only to God.

This post was edited by Nihlathak on Jul 23 2010 03:51pm

I still feel that knowledge of the end result =/= control of those reaching said end.

Underlined: No disagreement there.

I merely disagree.

"God knows exactly what we will do" does not equal God choosing what we do; at least, not to me.

As for your example, I don't see how this negates your free will over choosing a random number. You will choose a random number, and God will merely know what number it is before it is chosen. This doesn't mean that God forces you to choose, or that God forces a number to be drawn that coincides with his prediction.

This post was edited by Handcuffs on Jul 23 2010 03:53pm

If God knows every action we will take then that implies that there is some factor which constrains our will for him to be able to know how we will act. There's no other possibility, because if not there would be no other way for Him to know how we would act with absolute certainty.

Therefore, we do not have free will if such a God exists.

This post was edited by Nihlathak on Jul 23 2010 03:55pm

To me, all that says is that free will is limited to the physically possible in the sense that I can't will myself the ability to fly, obviously.

Beyond that, God knowing what I will choose to do does not mean that I'm not actively choosing such things.

That factor is your free will.

If it is truly free then nobody should be able to predict every action of yours with 100% certainty.

If He is able to do that, then that means there's a definite course of action that you will take which is predetermined (i.e. a finite set of inputs and outputs), which means we are no different than a very complex robot.

This sums up what I've been saying.

God says X will happen therefore nothing I could possibly do can change X from happening.

The actions of robots are programmed though.

He should absolutely be able to predict every action of mine with 100% certainty if he is omniscient.

If there's a "definite course of action that you will take which is predetermined" then what do you feel this is based on?

If God knows you will pick X, what do you feel it is based on? If it's programmed, then it's God's will that it is based on, which would be a violation of free will. If it's merely the ability to see the future, then it's based on your free will still. Your free will remains in tact whether it be within the present or the future. To say that you can't pick Y is to say that you had any intention of picking Y in the first place, which is an impossible scenario because you're effectively saying that you wish to be able to pick both X and Y at the same time in a case where only one can be chosen.

This post was edited by Handcuffs on Jul 23 2010 04:02pm