The key word is perfect. He knows more about you than you yourself, so one could argue He knows what you're going to do better than you do.

But regardless, people have the current illusion of free will, and only the mind of God is any the wiser on whether or not choice actually exists in this world.

This post was edited by PlasmaSnake101 on Jul 23 2010 04:20pm

It is probably one of the worst arguments I ever heard, though.

Let's say I go on a walk every day for 50 years and each time I take the same path. God knows about this and my other characteristics, but that doesn't mean I will walk that path every time.

All the argument shows is that God is an incredibly competent social scientist.

He knows you so well, to the point that he knows when you'll say, "I feel like taking another path." Let me nerd this up, if I fight five million battles in Final Fantasy, and if the game was set to take into account my actions on each battle, then the game would be able to predict my actions in any case. It would take into account the monster I am fighting, the level of HP I have, the level of MP I have, character preference, etc, and through that make a prediction on every move I make based off of the challenges posed.

God takes this understanding even further, by bearing the knowledge of every aspect of you, your thought processes, experiences, etc, as well as complete knowledge of the world around you, he can make predictions which can only not be called knowledge because the events had not unfolded yet. It's like playing a game of chess, just because you're opponent can read your moves and understand your strategy to near perfection doesn't mean you can no longer make choices.

i vouch everything u seys

/e handcuffs, i dont realize what u dont understand, tell me.

This post was edited by Magikarpet on Jul 23 2010 04:58pm

A hypothetical question for you, the greatest chess player in the world is able to read your moves before you make them. In fact, he is able to know how you will respond to every move he makes. He has observed you play chess in the past and has seen every strategy you've used. He also has knowledge of every strategy ever conceived in the game of chess. He has seen you in awkward games where every move is based on a whim and has an understanding of tenancies taken when you've no hope and are just playing blind.

Does this man's perfect understanding remove all choice from his opponent? Of course, the choice is of little consequence and we reach another question. In this case, is the chess master playing against him? His involvement in the example can make the game seem predetermined, the chess master wins. But in a situation where the all knowing is merely observing, the outcome is still up to the choices of individual.

This post was edited by PlasmaSnake101 on Jul 23 2010 05:11pm

As long as he doesn't have 100% certainty in his foreknowledge then free will is still intact.

Your analogy is flawed because it doesn't take into an account omniscience.

Here is a simple demonstration to prove omniscience and free-will cannot co-exist:

There are two objects on a table: an apple and an orange.

God is omnipotent and knows with 100% accuracy you will pick up the apple.

Is it possible for you to pick up the orange?

If no - Then you don't have free-will
If yes - Then god is not omniscient, and is flawed.

This post was edited by Aurorae on Jul 23 2010 05:15pm

There is a level of understanding that transcends the notion of making an educated guess. This level of understanding is basically telling of what will be. The level of understanding transcends human understanding, because we are incapable of saying a prediction or foretelling of the future based of knowledge is an educated guess. The concept transcends human logic and understanding, so forgive me if it is difficult to write down.

Take Aurorae's situation for example. I have so much information on Aurorae that I know he will pick the orange. I've factored in preference, mood, when he will be sick of eating the apples, level of trolling, etc. I have so much information on you that it is not even a question any more, its a matter of 1 + 1 = 2. The reason you claim that this is a weak line of reasoning is because when God comes into question you transcend human reasoning. However, just writing it transcends human reasoning is not a very satisfying answer.

I can try to write it in a sentence.

You will always have a choice, just because I know what you're going to do doesn't mean your choice has been eliminated.

For a troll cap: Was everyone's free will lost when Marty McFly visited the future?


This post was edited by PlasmaSnake101 on Jul 23 2010 05:41pm

The amount of information you would need to make it not be a question would be that of omniscience.