First things first:

I am not an 18 player
I am hosting 18 Tournaments next year
As you all know, these Tournaments are my attempts to keep LLD alive @ EU.

I am looking for more diversity in the bracket -

Having reviewed the last 6 tournaments I see :
Winner : Assa, times = 1.
Winner : Ama, times = 5.

I also see that there has only ever been 1 druid and 1 sorc across all of the level 18 1v1 Tournaments

1st 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=62137658&f=143&o=150 - Winner daiblo2g (Kicker)
2nd 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=63966792&f=143&o=250 - Winner Strayboy (Bowa) - this user name changed to amityville and then again to the_n1
3rd 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=64957019&f=143 - Winner Strayboy (Bowa) - this user name changed tgo amityville and then again to the_n1
4th 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=69942117&f=143&o=150 - Winner Sa_Se (Bowa)
5th 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=71508140&f=143&o=50 - Winner Sa_Se (Bowa)
6th 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73316627&f=143&o=525 - Winner Sa_Se (Bowa)
7th 18 Tournament - http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=77465851&f=143 << Current >>

A previous rule discussion thread: http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=67781765&f=143

I am looking for feedback from the community on what they want / dont want changed. My immediate intention is to cap ama FRW @ 50 and deny ama from using Str Bugged FRW, but beyond that I am all ears.
I would especially like to see people's views on the Sorc and Druids classes @ 18 (and the possibility of allowing them to level beyond 18, to say, 24).

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 18 2017 10:01am

[pants tighten]

on that subject i can say a few things.

1. 24 tele nado druid, testing has been limited but i can say it 100% fits into 18 tvt. based on its mana, regen, rep, etc it fits like a glove. BUT the dmg is underpowered. Mostly there to cast wolves to eat guided arrows and screw with chargers. FCR frames are too long in all convievable builds to Tele+wep swap+ nado ur opponent. Tele+nado works ok but then no block, in a bracket where zeal/jab will likely out DPS this tactic badly. Tele onto sorc could work imo, but still underpowered dmg. Last i looked it was around 30-40 dmg PVP per nado, but they're blockable, avoidable, and slow FCR, and subject to PDR. Honestly any zon could toss on a duskdeep and negate almost all of this builds dmg.

2. Fissure, always been close to charger imo in that matchup. IF you're nerfing str bugged boots on zons, id leave this build alone and see what happens. That might be all they need to compete. It's already a tier 2 build, buffing it to 24 gives it Warmth, a quite OP item.

3. 24 sorcs are honestly close to viable for 18 dueling. With some testing, potential item restrictions, etc this could work. 18 sorcs are bad, we all know it. They're fun to build and use, but they cant tele like they need to and dmg on most builds make them impossible to use (light + fwall)

4. IMO shapers could get a buff. 24 might be too much, but it might not. Rabies works in TVT somewhat at 18, but it can not beat anything but a charger, and still needs RNG there on their side. Deaths charger = unkillable.

5. with no str bugged zons kickers just pushed up big time. i hate kickers, any build that spends entire duels with just left click held down hoping the other guy stops running i dislike. but perhaps some incentive to BF or trap hybrid would be nice. a 19 warmth trapper still isn't good 1v1 but its miles above an 18 trapper.

6. ive always dreamed of a viable frw based BvA for this bracket, but it doesnt work well. frenzy might help, especially in tvt, but i feel its really an exercise in futility

Anyways, good luck on the book of revelations

First point - wholesale changes to bowas and paladins will not work. You would kill off a lot of interest. Also, Ive always thought of 18s as more of a fun TvT bracket that didn't have the competitive edge of 30s or 49s (and didnt have as many of the falling outs either).

On tournament winners - Can't speak for mr_n1 and his wins, but Sa_Se winning 3 on the trot is not surprising. Great player on a very strong class with the realms best setup. Give that to Twinsen on a ESFB @ lvl30 and you would have the same result for example. I don't recall a lot of strong zeal/charge in there either which would be the biggest killer of a bowa too. Riox was very close with a 5-4 in the last tour perhaps? My thought - I wouldn't use this solely as the basis for rule changes.

On amazons - 50frw and no bugged frw and you could possibly move assassins up to #2 class perhaps. I know tiger strikers for example were near impossible for me without bugged frw and 71frw. The bugged frw is more of an issue than the total amount though. 7frw gc is up to 45 life lost, a big chunk of a bowa at 18. My thought - if you are to tweak, try removing str bugged cthons first (maybe cthons entirely if must as the stamina is a huge part of beating assassins too).

On paladins - this is where most of the chit chat has been in recent 18 rule discussions. Its a toss up between the current no charging with might/conc and allow 1pt might & charge but allow charging with aura. My build is a 1pt charge 1pt might build (with no aura - it doesnt add much damage with 1 pt) and I kill most chars pretty easily on a standard setup. Gets ~1k zeal and 1k charge with 50% ds. [PRO]doesnt require gear changes to try, just a token. Means pala/pala and pala/bowa teams in tvt are not so op as the might provided is much lower. [CON] Arguments against this are that 1pt charge/might can wreak havoc on libbys and smiters charge damage (libby and smiters are essentially weak chargers to begin) although they dont have the same up front damage. Also allowing no charge with aura is easy to monitor and also lets you read paladins charge easier when you see the aura switched off. Paladins will complain their charge has been nerfed too much. Imo this will mean bowas pick up more rounds off chargers (but no str bug on bowa might mean they lose more to assassins in turn). My thought - try 1pt zeal & charge on zealots.

On 24s - May need practice and tweaking, but [PRO] should improve build diversity a lot at least for casters. [CON] May end up with chars that are very tanky (60life rolls on gear for example) in a bracket where the damage to life ratio is low on most chars. Attack rating could come into play especially if people go for 40def jewels. Charms could be op on some builds (e.g. 3max 15life scs, 15life 12mana scs) - possibly only allow level18 inventory could help. My thoughts - easiest rule change would be to allow sorcs and druids to lvl24 but only with a lvl18 inventory/jewels.

Closing points: Fewer rules is better than too many rules. Tokens are better than gear changes. TvT is better than 1v1 and is what 18s has mostly been about and is exactly where you see the build variety (e.g. I love my fire bow pala in tvt but would never dream of it for a tour).

/e Or we could try a tour with no zealots or bowas. Most active people in the last tour have an alt char, or could get access to one.

This post was edited by bonnerf2 on Dec 18 2017 10:43am

nerf zonka too much then fissure or throw baba becomes the op build no?

fissure for sure, and it boosts kickers and really all sins that much more.

thrower needs a bit of a boost in that matchup, but not overall. so nerf on the bowa seems best option, just a question of how much to nerf. invis spears vs GA is close as is, but i still feel thrower loses.

the real shame is we need like a 100 active community to test a lot of shit properly, maybe someone pay ladder noobs to test stuff

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 18 2017 12:52pm

Pala beats both fissure and throw papa no? Maybe if fiss opponent had 0rep or a zoo for blocking and a bit of luck but not the nicest duel.

As for throw barb and ama, more often than not its not close. Someone like peka can do very well, but i would get an ass kicking on a thrower.

On the note of allowing 24 chars in 18, i'll say the same thing i did when 59s were allowed in mld. Why can't we just accept that some builds won't be viable in a 1v1 tour and just leave it at that. All builds doesn't have to be able to compete in a tour, that reasoning makes no sense to me.

Also as it has been mentioned above 18 has never really been about 1v1 but rather focused on tvt. I have never heard any1 complain about not being able to use certain builds in tours because they are underpowered or wanting to change the rules for it. A lot of fun builds work perfectly in tvt and thats why ppl make them, not to join tours with them. And believe it or not, you can make a fun build without it having to be viable to compete in tours.
Also everyone is talking about the game dying and people quitting and giving all the items away, so is it really neccessary to change the rules at this stage?
Why not just try to enjoy the game and have fun as it is without complicating things since it's obviously dying anyway, and nothing will bring it back the way it once was.
If u want to try to balance 18 i dont mind at all. but im against allowing 24 in it since they are no reason for it. Better to keep 24 and 18 seperate imo.

Maybe we should update the lvl 30 rules instead (maybe use east rules?) now when we are discussing rules anyway, could be nice to see what the ppl that are still active thinks.

I think the idea is that at 18 there are only 2 truly viable builds, while at MLD many builds are viable. When it comes down to it, Bowa or Charger win every tour. Bowa is insanely strong at MLD as well, and its not like 10 different builds have won Tours at 49. Also its not just that individual builds are excluded, its whole classes. Sorcs dont work at 18, and they cant ever work. give a sorc 100 rep life, it still loses. give it mana pots, it will still lose. At 49, even before the wave of lvl 59 changes, each class had a potential build that was at least semi-viable for 1v1 play in tour.

over complicating things and running people off is not a good thing though, and must be considered. perhaps 24s are only meant for tvt, as people will generally let anything fly in tvt at least for a few rounds.

3 - I beat James' charger with my ranger.

#neverforget

The purpose here is to generate dueling, char building, trading, and community activity.
With regards to 18 - the simplest rule to make 2 classes (not builds, classes) more competitive is simply : "May level to 24". Anything else would be overly complicated and I dont see it working. Look if it does not work, it does not work, but I honestly would not mind seeing a druid and/or a sorc in a tournament.
With regards to 30 - I have no issues with employing East rules, and if thats what people want then that what they will get next tournament. If you want to comment on East Rules, Please feel free to post the rules here.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 18 2017 03:14pm