d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Scotus Set To Heat 4th Amendment Case > Cell Phone Data
12Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 9,374
Joined: Mar 16 2008
Gold: 3,260.00
Nov 29 2017 09:03am
Quote
How difficult should it be for law enforcement to get cellphone records showing a suspect’s past location? That’s the question before the Supreme Court on Wednesday in Carpenter v. U.S., which challenges decades of Fourth Amendment law.

Timothy Carpenter is serving 116 years in prison for a string of armed robberies. During the investigation, the government obtained 127 days of location data from Carpenter’s wireless carrier, showing that his phone connected to cell towers near the crime scenes.

The first question is whether this constitutes an “unreasonable search,” which would trigger Fourth Amendment protections requiring a warrant. The government says no, arguing the location data didn’t belong to Carpenter, but were business records created by the phone company. This distinction is important, since it invokes the “third-party doctrine” that police investigations have relied on for decades.

This doctrine mirrors the basic idea that law enforcement may gather evidence from witnesses. Just as police can canvass neighborhood shopkeepers, they ought to be able to ask a phone carrier whether its network “saw” the suspect. Ten minutes before the robbery, did he make a call that was handled by a cell tower down the street? Or was he texting in Toledo?

Carpenter says long-term data from cellphones represents something new: an “unprecedented surveillance time machine.” He does not dispute that police can get location records covering a short term—say, 24 hours—without a warrant. But he argues that tracking a suspect’s routine movements for 127 days is qualitatively different.

There may be an appetite on the Court for this idea. In a 2012 case, Justice Samuel Alito argued that police were free to follow a suspect around town, but that “longer term GPS monitoring in investigations of most offenses impinges on expectations of privacy.” Four other Justices agreed.

Yet civil libertarians want more. Several groups have filed briefs making the maximalist claim that law enforcement should need a warrant before getting any cellphone location data. In that same 2012 case, Justice Sonia Sotomayor floated the idea of ditching the third-party doctrine. “It may be necessary to reconsider the premise that an individual has no reasonable expectation of privacy in information voluntarily disclosed to third parties,” she wrote. “This approach is ill suited to the digital age.”

That would be a mistake. The routing data from cellphone calls does not reveal the content of any communication, but it can be invaluable at the start of a police investigation, before probable cause exists to justify a warrant. In 2011 a federal judge in Jacksonville, Fla., was sitting in his living room when a rifle bullet came through his window, missing his head by inches. There were no witnesses and dozens of potential suspects. With phone location records, police were able to exclude many, and within 48 hours they found their man.

It’s also important to know that Congress created the legal framework for getting this data. Police must present “specific and articulable facts” showing that the records are “relevant and material to an ongoing criminal investigation.” A judge must sign off. If more protections are needed, Congress can add them. But where is the process misused today? If the threat of abuse is as large as privacy activists claim, they ought to be able to find a better champion than Timothy Carpenter.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/fourth-amendment-showdown-1511915381


I really hope that the court upholds the 4th Amendment and extends it to apply to our modern age of technology. I have to disagree with the WSJ Editorial Board on this one. We already have laws and rules for going after suspected criminals and I believe they work just fine. If there is no probable cause that you have committed a crime then your information should not be combed through by the government who is looking to make you into a suspect. Your private data held at firms you make a contract with should stay private unless there is a warrant issued for probable cause. Why should cell phone data be any different than landline or telegraph? The government is just allowed to track everyone everywhere they go because the telecoms - who the government has generously given billions in subsidies over the years - say it is okay? It is not Verizon's data to share, it is mine.

Quote
4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Well shit, if the court doesn't modernize this then I guess I am only protected from state seizure of my body, my house, physical paper documents and physical property. Good thing all of my medical records, financials, private writings, etc are all on single pieces of paper stored in my vault inside my house.

What does PaRD think about the 4th Amendment?
Member
Posts: 90,631
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,489.69
Nov 29 2017 09:07am
I see verizon making the same shitty argument that schools make for random locker checks. "it's YOUR stuff, in OUR container".

ps. "heat"

This post was edited by thesnipa on Nov 29 2017 09:07am
Member
Posts: 12,486
Joined: Oct 16 2008
Gold: 2,571.50
Nov 29 2017 09:10am
If they own that data, I see no issues with them choosing to provide law enforcement the information during an ongoing investigation. As long as the phone company discloses that they can do this in the terms of service when you sign up.



Member
Posts: 77,534
Joined: Nov 30 2008
Gold: 500.00
Nov 29 2017 09:11am
i'd wager they got you to sign away your privacy through the fine print somewhere
Member
Posts: 9,374
Joined: Mar 16 2008
Gold: 3,260.00
Nov 29 2017 09:17am
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 29 2017 10:07am)
I see verizon making the same shitty argument that schools make for random locker checks. "it's YOUR stuff, in OUR container".

ps. "heat"


Quote (iBruno @ Nov 29 2017 10:10am)
If they own that data, I see no issues with them choosing to provide law enforcement the information during an ongoing investigation. As long as the phone company discloses that they can do this in the terms of service when you sign up.


Quote (duffman316 @ Nov 29 2017 10:11am)
i'd wager they got you to sign away your privacy through the fine print somewhere




I'm just not comfortable with these arguments because the telecoms have received billions and billions of dollars from the government through subsidies and federal contracts to the point where there is no competition. I would use a phone company that doesn't give my data to big brother all willy nilly but I know that no such company exists thanks to: big brother.

They need a warrant to tap your home phone line, why wouldn't they need a warrant to track your cell phone? This is all one reason that I don't use cloud services for any of my personal files/information. Say I wrote a book, but I stored it on Google and they own the servers so technically it is their book and I am infringing on their IP.

/e

And so my doctors and/or any hospital I've been to owns my medical data? And my broker/banker owns my financial data?

This post was edited by murder567 on Nov 29 2017 09:20am
Member
Posts: 77,534
Joined: Nov 30 2008
Gold: 500.00
Nov 29 2017 09:25am
Quote (murder567 @ Nov 29 2017 10:17am)
I'm just not comfortable with these arguments because the telecoms have received billions and billions of dollars from the government through subsidies and federal contracts to the point where there is no competition. I would use a phone company that doesn't give my data to big brother all willy nilly but I know that no such company exists thanks to: big brother.

They need a warrant to tap your home phone line, why wouldn't they need a warrant to track your cell phone? This is all one reason that I don't use cloud services for any of my personal files/information. Say I wrote a book, but I stored it on Google and they own the servers so technically it is their book and I am infringing on their IP.

/e

And so my doctors and/or any hospital I've been to owns my medical data? And my broker/banker owns my financial data?


i work in this space and i can tell you that corporations are only concerned with being compliant with regulators - particularly if there are large fines for non compliance
the constitutionality of a compliance requirement never enters into the picture

if you want the constitutionality of these requirements to matter you need to elect representatives who will appoint people who respect the constitution to head these agencies

This post was edited by duffman316 on Nov 29 2017 09:27am
Member
Posts: 90,631
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,489.69
Nov 29 2017 09:30am
Quote (murder567 @ Nov 29 2017 09:17am)
I'm just not comfortable with these arguments because the telecoms have received billions and billions of dollars from the government through subsidies and federal contracts to the point where there is no competition. I would use a phone company that doesn't give my data to big brother all willy nilly but I know that no such company exists thanks to: big brother.

They need a warrant to tap your home phone line, why wouldn't they need a warrant to track your cell phone? This is all one reason that I don't use cloud services for any of my personal files/information. Say I wrote a book, but I stored it on Google and they own the servers so technically it is their book and I am infringing on their IP.

/e

And so my doctors and/or any hospital I've been to owns my medical data? And my broker/banker owns my financial data?


i dont think the monopoly argument holds as much water anymore. it did when each telecom had an infrastructure of their own of towers. now they share towers and even sublet out towers to smaller telecoms for a fee. it's never been easier to get into the business, financially because u can take advantage of existing infrastructure and technologically because the trade secrets are eroding as access to the info grows.

that doesn't mean i like it, i hate it.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Nov 29 2017 09:30am
Member
Posts: 9,374
Joined: Mar 16 2008
Gold: 3,260.00
Nov 29 2017 09:31am
Quote (duffman316 @ Nov 29 2017 10:25am)
i work in this space and i can tell you that corporations are only concerned with being compliant with regulators
the constitutionality of a compliance requirement never enters into the picture


Which is precisely why the SCOTUS is hearing this case.

My cell phone is rooted so I could terminate any service/app/etc that is broadcasting my data to anyone. I can also shut off my network antennae/wifi and spoof my GPS location to anywhere I want to - but I shouldn't have to do any of this in order to protect my privacy from anyone and everyone in the government. I could build a cell phone that is more secure/encrypted/VPN/etc and pay some network to sell me unused bandwidth and go through much efforts to anonymize my connections - but I shouldn't have to do this if I want any sense of privacy from the 2+ million government employees.

I understand that they currently can do these things but it just doesn't seem very free or American to me. If I actually had any valuable or incriminating information to hide I know how I could do it, it's just cost prohibitive for the average person to actually fight for privacy in the marketplace, primarily thanks to big brother.
Member
Posts: 5,984
Joined: Jan 8 2010
Gold: 745.69
Nov 29 2017 03:30pm
Quote (murder567 @ Nov 29 2017 10:17am)
I'm just not comfortable with these arguments because the telecoms have received billions and billions of dollars from the government through subsidies and federal contracts to the point where there is no competition. I would use a phone company that doesn't give my data to big brother all willy nilly but I know that no such company exists thanks to: big brother.

They need a warrant to tap your home phone line, why wouldn't they need a warrant to track your cell phone? This is all one reason that I don't use cloud services for any of my personal files/information. Say I wrote a book, but I stored it on Google and they own the servers so technically it is their book and I am infringing on their IP.

/e

And so my doctors and/or any hospital I've been to owns my medical data? And my broker/banker owns my financial data?


I think if we're going to use those sorts of justifications to access people's data, then we need to just be honest and admit that people do not have a reasonable expectation to privacy. I would very much like to retain digital privacy, but at the very least, if I'm not going to get it, don't lead me on to thinking that I will. I personally think that the founders of our country would be appalled at the lack of respect given to the 4th amendment in the current day, and I can only hope that some semblance of power is restored to it in this hearing (though I doubt that will be the case).
Member
Posts: 90,631
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,489.69
Nov 29 2017 03:34pm
Quote (Magicman657 @ Nov 29 2017 03:30pm)
I think if we're going to use those sorts of justifications to access people's data, then we need to just be honest and admit that people do not have a reasonable expectation to privacy. I would very much like to retain digital privacy, but at the very least, if I'm not going to get it, don't lead me on to thinking that I will. I personally think that the founders of our country would be appalled at the lack of respect given to the 4th amendment in the current day, and I can only hope that some semblance of power is restored to it in this hearing (though I doubt that will be the case).


this situation was basically spoofed by Southpark in the terms of use apple human cent-ipad episode. We slowly signed away more and more of our privacy, all for cheap entertainment.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
12Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll