On the 4th frame check the hit is main hand only
On the 8th frame check the hit is main hand + off hand at the same time

All other check are irrelevant if you can keep your mouse centered (aka appearently no one who plays a ww character)

In terms of raw damage, a legendary mallet can / will out damage grief (as seen back in the typical d2pk bvc builds)

Yes its less range, yes its less ow, yes its less zerk ias, and no, you shouldn't be buffing through druids to kill all summons when its more effective to directly target and only hit the druid.

But who gives a shit when your avg dmg is so high you consistently fhr lock anything you stomp and ww where it dies 2-3 hits max. And if they try to wsg/run out its even more free hits... Same goes with a 2h'er. (edeathga typically ideal for real realm weapons)

If you can effectively use the different play style it can be loads better than your average mest whirl click and hold retard fpk bvc...

whirlwind has a maximum range 5, which is reached by a rangeadder 3 (range 4 as listed on arrest summit) weapon in pvp, since players are size 2 (2+3 = 5)
its possible to have up to range 7 on normal attacks with a rangeadder 4 weapon against size 3 enemies, but against enemy players you cover 85% of the area with a +2 weapon like berserker axes and cover 100% of the area with a +3 weapon.
so a war pike has the same range as a glorious axe. But for berserk, the war pike is longer.
the thing is that whirlwind only checks for targets inside the 5 range radius, then checks for weapon range. I'm not sure if this means that shorter weapons sometimes miss when there are targets outside the radius (I don't think so), but it means you can't hit from 6+ range



Without scripts its pretty absurd to try to only clip on 4/8 frame hits and it really limits your playstyle and makes you more prone to mistakes. You probably average less damage just from human error
If you had a perfect 500% ed eth +20 max 20% deadly strike mallet, that's still just 500 damage. Compared to grief you're getting +46 damage while losing venom, -25% defense, -25% poison resist, life after kill (matters vs dudu), not hitting the whirlwind breakpoint on whirls that last more than 1/3 of a second and not being able to wield a beast mace, so you have to sacrifice something on mastery or not having the efficiency of fanat, which means you're probably doing less damage anyway

The only way you can an 8 frame clip whirlwind work is with a big 2 handed weapon like a thunder maul

If u say the 8th frame checks both weapons fine, but tight whirls do less damage / hitchecks than semi-loose triwirls, this is 100% true and any barb player experiences that. Perfect mouse centering sucks for whirling. I can think of 1 reason for it.

7frame/side triwil= 0001000/0001000/0001000/0 = 3 hitchecks in 22frames

12frame/side trwirl =000100020002/000100020002 = 10 hitchecks in 22frames

Ofc this wouldnt be exact like this but u get the point. When the wirl restarts before reaching the next hitcheck that makes it inneficient as oposed to keep whirling within range.

Tight triwirls = good for chaining/relocking/fleeing stun/dodging dmg
Semi-wide triwirls within range = best dmg

I dont agree with some of the things u say anyway. Top druids ignore leap for the most part so the best way to hit them is either zerk or be able to clear minions as fast as posible and keep the pressure up till u wirl em with few to no minions. Hence zerkias/max amount of hitchecks is essential. Also Wsging is a fabulous way to scape wirls minimizing the amount of dmg taken if u do them the right lenght, ull seem stuck/desynched, minions will take all the dmg and by the time barb restomps ure already out.

This post was edited by reyrol on Oct 16 2017 05:23pm

On the topic, if u do the maths ull see that the most efficient is to have 400min/max over 200/600 min max weapon in order to maximize the amount of 75%fhr dmg rolls as oposed to having random 0-37fhr -75-100% fhr that lets the oponent go more often. In that regard, idk if grief+beast is better than grief/grief but the fanatism is just too good for ar+zerk in general imo.

Maybe vs necro/sorc/trap for example where u nn much ar and have a lot of offhand Ed from dmg setup items the grief/grief could outperform beast

a lot of it is theorycraft that diverges too much from practicality. Besides which build actually gives the most damage overall even under the most cherry picked circumstances (still probably grief/beast anyway), it misses out on human error in timings that require single frame inputs nonstop to be fully effective, it ignores the effects of lag, it ignores that short whirls and centered cursor means frequently clicking your enemy or a minion and either performing a vulnerable interruptible useless normal attack or getting ww-locked, which is usually a death sentence. And like above, that's still ignoring how fantastically better grief/beast is for zerk.
the whirlwind bug for AR also means that its a whole lot less effective to use a fools in one of the hands but not the other, and a whole lot more effective to get %ar from fanat that works on both hands.

sure there's wiggle room between grief/beast vs their hybrid counterparts, but grief/beast is one of those combos that the cookie cutter easily beats any unique snowflake build
course, dual eth lacerators on switch has a completely different purpose

Well if the barb is good and has nailed alt wwing, he'll never ww lock targets. No matter how tight the wws are

You have to alternate to be able to chainlock, and thats where the fiddlyness starts

alt + wirl = ez pk.

A perfect legendary mallets min is higher than griefs max, and its max is ~100 higher then griefs max... So theres no 200-600 being considered here. Dont care enough but i actually have a maple code / probability distribution of damage rolls and how its translates back to fhr% chances given a targets life. Vs druids/necs a edeath always came out on top vs grief beast :/

But i mean you just said the best way to catch a druid is to zerk them so yeah.. Not going to bother continuing on this lol


Talk to paul, he'll verify the way i play/abuse a 2h'er in fpks can be outright stupid.

God&bod ba imo

This post was edited by Noog56 on Oct 18 2017 04:56pm