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#51
Oct 4 2017 06:49pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 4 2017 08:48pm)
if someone has dire fertility issues how long should they be allowed to fertilize and subsequently kill embryos? what if each pregnancy makes it to the 3rd trimester?


indefinitely
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#52
Oct 4 2017 06:49pm
The answer is no
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#53
Oct 4 2017 06:51pm
Quote (Pollster @ Oct 4 2017 07:48pm)
You're asking why I have a personal opposition to abortion? I find it a very unfortunate occurrence for all involved, and think that if we corrected some of the more problematic aspects of what we do on this and related issues (Republican TRAP laws and their other anti-abortion measures, expanding Medicaid and family assistance programs) that many would be unnecessary.


Yes, that is what I was asking.

You didn't really answer my question. I'm not asking from a political perspective... why do you personally feel that abortion should be avoided whenever possible? It's a simple medical procedure.
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#54
Oct 4 2017 06:52pm
if the government disallows someone from even attempting to pursue a pregnancy, isn't that murder
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#55
Oct 4 2017 07:22pm
why you dodgen me DCSS?
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#56
Oct 4 2017 09:35pm
Quote (Xandriia @ 4 Oct 2017 17:51)
I've always wanted to ask this on other forums I was once a part of, but I also didn't want to trigger anyone that had fertility issues. Didn't think I'd have an issue here since it's mostly guys, but sorry in advance if I'm wrong.

This is mostly directed at people who claim to be pro-life.

Obviously there are a lot of women out there who have trouble conceiving. Even when they do, they may have only a small chance of making it to term. Say a woman has gotten pregnant multiple times, each time resulting in a miscarriage. She knows that there's a high chance that this will always be the case with her pregnancies, but she keeps TTC anyway.

Is she a murderer?


involuntary manslaughter probably... ................

Some men seems to think abortion is an easy for process for all women.

I guess it's not 99% of time.
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#57
Oct 4 2017 10:04pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 4 2017 01:04pm)
...except this is never the case. Even with women that have had multiple miscarriages there is a probability that the baby will survive. I challenge you to find me examples were doctors have proven 100% a baby will die due to miscarriage and the women continues on trying to make a baby.

Abortion is a rational choice on the part of the women, miscarriage is not. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?


Blood clotting disorders, abnormal chromosomes, cervix issues, polycystic ovaries, and vaginal infections are all conditions for recurrent miscarriages. It may not always be 100% knowing, but it can be as knowing as knowing either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton was going to end up POTUS.
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#58
Oct 4 2017 10:34pm
Quote (djman72 @ Oct 4 2017 02:01pm)
Wrong. That is not his point, which is the entire problem with his argument.

I would agree with both of you that, in this one scenario, that a mother was purposely getting pregnant knowing that with 100% certainty (that's the important part here, folks) that the child will die then it's wrong.

If there is a chance she can bring a child into this world, then it's absolutely fine.

I have no moral outrage here, it's simply common sense.

Quote (IceMage @ Oct 4 2017 02:03pm)
There's a difference between knowing the unborn baby will die, and knowing there's a good chance the unborn baby will die. It's an interesting question, but I don't think it's comparable. Miscarriages are very common, nature made it that way, and intent is the major factor here.

I suppose there's an argument to be made that if a woman knows every pregnancy will miscarriage, she's on the same moral ground as a woman who gets an abortion, but is it even possible to have that knowledge?



What about 99%?

Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 4 2017 02:35pm)
You literally don't have an argument. You fail to understand even the most basic of principles that differentiate the two.

Abortion is a free & voluntary choice. Miscarriage is not. Even if the probability of life failing is high does not negate the intent that the person trying to conceive isn't doing so because they are some sick fuck that enjoys miscarriage but they genuinely want a child.

This is no joke, one of the worst arguments against pro-life i have ever heard. I would like to thank you because such bad arguments are low hanging fruit to make your camp look idiotic.


Conception is a choice and conception with the knowledge that the baby will (probably, definitely, take your pick) die is a choice.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 4 2017 02:04pm)
...except this is never the case. Even with women that have had multiple miscarriages there is a probability that the baby will survive. I challenge you to find me examples were doctors have proven 100% a baby will die due to miscarriage and the women continues on trying to make a baby.

Abortion is a rational choice on the part of the women, miscarriage is not. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?


This is a thought experiment, follow it through to its logical conclusion disregarding practicality.

If you insist on focusing on the probability, what is the exact percentage of baby survival rate at which it becomes morally permissible to conceive?

Quote (EndlessSky @ Oct 4 2017 05:51pm)
I would adopt after the third. This would never happen to me.


I applaud your mindset.

Quote (Skinned @ Oct 4 2017 08:27pm)
But we are discussing legality, not morality. Completely different things. Pro-choice is concerning the legality of abortion, not morality.


I think the moral discussion is much more interesting than the legal one.

Quote (DCSS @ Oct 4 2017 08:36pm)
The more they try and fail the sadder I feel for them, not for some lives that didn't exist. I don't know why you'd even make it about the embryo's that are being lost when the actual human being that has a mind rights and feelings is probably on an emotional roller coaster of hope and pain while trying to get a pregnancy to stick.


Couldn't agree more.

Quote (DCSS @ Oct 4 2017 08:52pm)
if the government disallows someone from even attempting to pursue a pregnancy, isn't that murder


No, it is not, unless your definition of murder includes possible lives.

This post was edited by Voyaging on Oct 4 2017 10:56pm
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#59
Oct 5 2017 01:49pm
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 4 2017 05:51pm)
Yes, that is what I was asking.

You didn't really answer my question. I'm not asking from a political perspective... why do you personally feel that abortion should be avoided whenever possible? It's a simple medical procedure.


I prefer to avoid abortion because it isn't something that has to innately be as widespread/frequently-occurring at the societal level as it is, a situation I find very unfortunate. It only occurs at the frequency that it does because we do all the "small" things wrong or badly.

I don't view getting an abortion as a conventional exercise in the same fashion as having a bone set or getting a cyst/kidney stone removed may be, even though I do think we are obligated to ensure that the procedure is available to everyone who desires one. I think it's a very consequential undertaking, and one we could avoid much more through better public policy.

This post was edited by Pollster on Oct 5 2017 01:50pm
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#60
Oct 11 2017 02:54pm
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 4 2017 05:51pm)
Yes, that is what I was asking.


Quote (Pollster @ Oct 5 2017 12:49pm)
...It only occurs at the frequency that it does because we do all the "small" things wrong or badly...


To wit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/us/politics/trump-contraception-birth-control.html

This is exactly what I was talking about. Nonsensical all the way around. It's easy enough to divine Trump's thinking -- he doesn't know anything about public policy -- but like most cases virtually every other national Republican would make the same decision as Trump, because it's become a post-policy party made up almost solely by extremists.
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