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Mar 21 2017 03:14am
Hey fellow slashers,

I need to know some of the deeper theories in ls - the value of the different armor classes.

Since I been playing I realized people prefer scales and leathers and padded robes.

Of course, some armors can not be worn by every class but I think that is not the whole storry.

I just made a few excel calculations and realized that all armors have a summ of the average defense values (phys + magical) of 63.

So if the incomming damage is equally distributed - each armor should be equally good.

But somehow it is not? Please help out a poor nub ^_^ and explain me the idea behind the strong preferrence for scales.



Cheers!
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Mar 21 2017 05:13am
Quote (Ultimor @ Mar 21 2017 05:14am)
Hey fellow slashers,

I need to know some of the deeper theories in ls - the value of the different armor classes.

Since I been playing I realized people prefer scales and leathers and padded robes.

Of course, some armors can not be worn by every class but I think that is not the whole storry.

I just made a few excel calculations and realized that all armors have a summ of the average defense values (phys + magical) of 63.

So if the incomming damage is equally distributed - each armor should be equally good.

But somehow it is not? Please help out a poor nub ^_^ and explain me the idea behind the strong preferrence for scales.



Cheers!


I could talk about this for hours!!! Lemme just start off by giving you my rankings of utility and price which are qualitative, but should give you a general feel for differences between the types. Note that the values are based on pure EE armors. The story changes completely with padded and even robe being of much higher value if you start to add stats ;)

Defense value:
Scale >> Chain >>>>> Leather >> Plate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Padded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robe

FG Value:
Scale >>>>>> Leather >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain > Plate > Padded* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robe

Rationale:
Defense value is mainly based on the ratios of monsters in cata that use physical attacks vs magical attacks. Now, all monsters in cata can-and given enough time, will-use physical attacks. But only some monsters will use magical damage. Also the natural random composition of monster attack types is skewed toward physical. Therefore it is more beneficial to stack physical defenses than magical defenses. This is the main reason why plates, chains, scales and leathers are so much more effective than padded and robes, and why generally character classes that can wear at least medium armor tend not to use ee paddeds/robes. However, except for in special circumstances ( ask pun_godlike about this ;) ), plates are not usually the best choice for tanking because they have nearly no magical defense, and so they get shredded as badly by magical attacks as robes get shredded by physical ones. Even chains are quite susceptible to this, but they have double the magical defense of plates, and so aren't quite as weak against magic.

As you guessed, FG values do not align with defense values because of armor type restrictions based on class. EE padded robes are actually valuable because monks and ninjas cannot equip medium or heavy armors. And medium armors are considered the highest value ee armor types because they have some of the best mitigation and can also be used by more classes (especially because they can be used by headhunters, which tend to be the main tanking class in a lot of climbs).

Some reservations:
The exact defense value of each armor type is strongly influenced by the amount of vit (multiplier for phys defense) and int (multiplier for magical defense) on the character you are tanking on. Because of this and because compositions of mob attack types can vary a lot, there will be some healthy controversy over which ee armor type among the top 4 is best (scale, leather, chain, and plate). As a general rule, if you are stacking int, an armor type that has higher physical defense is preferred, and if you are stacking vit, an armor type that has higher magical defense is preferred. Doing this will basically balance your defenses, reducing your vulnerability to one type of attack. ( This can change completely based on situation, especially at absurdly high levels, but I digress... :P )

*Also, for the 3 armor types in the middle of the fg value scale, simply stating chain > plate > padded is not exactly the whole story. At lower level and ee values, it seems to be that chain = plate > padded for value. However, at the highest ees and highest levels (think lvl 55 and over 200 ee), padded outstrips its heavy compatriots in terms of value. It would appear that this has mainly to do with the fact that most slashers looking for lower gear have not yet unlocked monk, ninja yet and the first 3 classes can all wear all armor types making heavies much more valuable to them ;)

Hope this helps. And I hope I didn't scare everyone away from giving their opinions, since I would like to read about what others think too :thumbsup:

This post was edited by BWConformity on Mar 21 2017 05:40am
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Mar 21 2017 05:44am
Thanks a lot BWConformity! ^_^

Quote (BWConformity @ Mar 21 2017 11:13am)
And I hope I didn't scare everyone away from giving their opinions, since I would like to read about what others think too :thumbsup:


Haha! We need more opinons!! :P
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Mar 21 2017 09:00am
Quote (Ultimor @ Mar 21 2017 04:14am)
Hey fellow slashers,

I need to know some of the deeper theories in ls - the value of the different armor classes.

Since I been playing I realized people prefer scales and leathers and padded robes.

Of course, some armors can not be worn by every class but I think that is not the whole storry.

I just made a few excel calculations and realized that all armors have a summ of the average defense values (phys + magical) of 63.

So if the incomming damage is equally distributed - each armor should be equally good.

But somehow it is not? Please help out a poor nub ^_^ and explain me the idea behind the strong preferrence for scales.



Cheers!


Damage is no longer dealt equally. Monster AI got tweaked in the same release as the introduction of element masteries. All monsters have a melee and elemental attack. Now a monster will hit a player more often with a attack of which his defense is less. Example you have more physical defense then you will get hit more times with a casting attack vs a melee one.

Because of this to be most efficient a player wants to use an armor type that has the most balanced defense. So #1 Leathers, #2 scales. After that it's all the same. Padded can be sought after not because of great defensive properties but more because it can be worn by all but guardian. So a group of all monk-warlocks can still have a tank. It's hard to put an exact number on it because each climb spawns differently. But the sample from 30 climbs and comparing the same ee scale and leather from 55-71 and then 71-101 was a difference of 15k more damage taken on the scale from 55 to 71, and then from 71-101 the scale took 60k more damage. That's significant. A plate took around 112k more. This is with using 255ee armors, the damage taken would increase beyond that with lower ee armors compared.

You could make due with anything before but with the change in the monster level and damage added later it's harder to go from 55+ with an out of balance armor. A big reason the heal prof ladder has really seen some movement over the last 3 seasons. So much so it's easier to use medium armors and a non guardian class to do mirror maze now.


That being said if you're going to 5 man climb just 1-71 and you have two healers you can make due with anything as long as the heals are average.
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Mar 25 2017 06:11am
For me personally, I found also PowerTrippeds remarks compelling.

But, I heared from some folks, that they disagree with certain points so I would like to encourage everybody to share their insights and let all of us know.

Thanks in advance,

Cheers!
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Mar 25 2017 11:16am
Quote (Ultimor @ Mar 25 2017 07:11am)
For me personally, I found also PowerTrippeds remarks compelling.

But, I heared from some folks, that they disagree with certain points so I would like to encourage everybody to share their insights and let all of us know.

Thanks in advance,

Cheers!



Yeah I can back up all I posted with data from the proven climbs if needed really not that big of a deal. Again I was the only one that had use of the #1 leather, scale, chain, and plate at the time for the testing. The monster changes were common knowledge at the time they happened.
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Mar 27 2017 04:17am
I think the major point of the argument is that you value leather over scale. Is there an explanation for that (apart from empirical data)?

Here are the raw values of whites:

lvl 55 Leather:

phys: 14-42
magic: 14-56

lvl 55 scale:

phys: 14-56
magic: 14-42


Should be the same if monsters go for weaknesses.

This post was edited by Ultimor on Mar 27 2017 04:18am
Member
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Mar 27 2017 06:09am
Quote (Ultimor @ Mar 27 2017 05:17am)
I think the major point of the argument is that you value leather over scale. Is there an explanation for that (apart from empirical data)?

Here are the raw values of whites:

lvl 55 Leather:

phys: 14-42
magic: 14-56

lvl 55 scale:

phys: 14-56
magic: 14-42


Should be the same if monsters go for weaknesses.



Yeah I understand the thought. This is where knowledge and experience come in. On paper it looks better. Then you put them on a character and you can see the issue. The tanker is going to most always have more vita than int statted. Scale: 1 vita = 1 EE, 1 int = .75 ee. You will always be out of balance unless you statted 25% more int than the vita total. And in doing so you kill your damage output.

Where as Leather: 1 vita = .75 EE, 1 int = 1 EE. So you can get the most desired ballanced defense using far less points. This then leaves you more points to be able to stat into strength or dex for your damage output.

Practical example: Paladin starts with a base 55 vita, 20 int. For balance you'd need to get that to 55 vita, 74 int to balance it using a scale. that's 54 points used just to make it the best tanker. As soon as you drop a scale on that base ratio it takes it farther out of balance to the physical side. You could never bring that back unless you had a stat charm with a lot of int on it in addition to your desired str or dex, or int from an armor or weapon mod. Limiting you from the start the use of more rare specific gear. Using a leather cuts all of that out.

Now do realize we're splitting hairs here and this really only makes a big difference with mirror maze and 101 climbs of if the groups damage output is bad or if the clicking over all is bad both would cause you to take increased damage. But the question was which is better. It makes the Paladin the better tank/healer/damage choice over the guardian if you have the armors to support it.

This post was edited by PowerTripped on Mar 27 2017 06:10am
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