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Sep 24 2018 04:57am
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 24 2018 10:34am)
Yeah see? Now you're getting it! Once the assumption was made that Luke was referring to Mary's genealogy then it made sense. Surely that is what he was referring to because it makes sense. You would be surprised at how many readers believe that Luke 3 is recording Mary's genealogy. You explain all of this to them and it makes sense. It is like putting the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together, we have Joseph betrothed to Mary and the genealogy in among all of that. Line up all of the puzzle pieces and boom, you can easily work out that Matthew is going through the line of Joseph and Luke is going through the line of Mary.


Also there are other problems with the genealogy. In fact, Matthew chapter 1 & 2 are my favourite chapters in the New Testament - they are the first, and they are enough to read in order to discover the fallacy of NT. There are more errors and contradictions in Matthew 1&2 - two small chapters, than it is in any other page of the New Testament cannon.

Since Matthew's genealogy clearly differs from the genealogy given in Luke - and why there is a difference is not explained by the authors; there are no explanations for a legal and a biological genealogy, so that are just assumptions; hence we must recognize the contradiction. Otherwise there had to be an explanation. But there is none.

But that is not the only problem with Matthew's genealogy. Matthew wanted to prove a 14;14;14;14-pattern from Abraham to David, from David to capitivity in Babylon, to Christ. He claims there to be fourteen generations between:
Quote
So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.
(Matthew 1:17)

And as anyone can check up; this claim is false. The reason why Matthew wrote this is because he was obsessed with prophecies, every prophecy, no matter how insignificant, had to be included in his new testament, in order to support the messiahhood of Jesus Christ.

Several names are omitted from hist list, and there is of course no 14;14;14;14-pattern between Jesus and King David, Abraham and Babylonian captivity. The funniest part is that if you count the generations from babylonic captivity to Jesus, it is only 13. It's not even 14 on Matthew's own list. And the only reason he wanted to complicate the matter so much is because of his almost psychotic fascination and obsession with prophecy. And this 14 generations from Jesus to Captivity, to David, and to Abraham, works only if you omit names from the list. Several names are gone in Matthew's genealogy. Yet he claims "ALL GENERATIONS". The genealogy given in Matthew doesn't even match the one in the Old Testament.

There is like 3-4 erroneous claims in the genealogy alone. The very first verses in the Christian Bible are false.

1. The genealogy is contradicting that one given in Luke 3.
2. The genealogy is contradicting the genealogies given in 1 chronicles chapter 1 & 2; for example: Matthew says that this 14;14;14;14 generation pattern is somehow a validation for Christ being a Messiah but no such pattern is to be found in the Old Testament, in the chapters I gave you.
3. Even in Matthew's list, there are not fourteen generations from captivity in Babylon to the birth of Jesus Christ. His own claim falls flat in almost the very sentence he wrote it!

Here you can read a very good explanation here written in close detail: https://findingtruth.info/2011/03/11/contradictions-part-6-jesuss-genealogy/


As you can see the contradiction in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 is not the only problem with the genealogy given in Matthew 1. There are errors in the book of Matthew on every page.



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Sep 25 2018 06:16am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 24 2018 07:55pm)
And i love that you lack even basic self awareness and it makes you miss that i couldnt possibly have been referencing you.

Youre trying desparately to shoehorn in the geneology when its clearly a contradiction.


No I'm not. I just know that I am right.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Reading God's word shouldn't be like putting a jigsaw together, especially when it comes to such a simple thing as a genealogy. I don't get a thing because the genealogies are contradictory. Mary is not mentioned in the genealogy, she is not mentioned in Luke 3. There is no way, no way, that if you were to read Luke 3 that you would somehow think that it is Mary's genealogy. There is no way - you must read Matthew 1, then take away Joseph being the son of Heli, or assume it means son-in-law, or legal son or whatever, and then you have to add Mary's name in there, so as to show that clearly Joseph is the legal son of Heli or show their connection. But Mary's name isn't there. The apologetics explanation is ridiculous, and you know that as well. You would never accept such far-fetched explanations for any other religion. If you found such mistakes in the Quran you would discard it, not trying to make it fit with the help of acrobatics and absurd assumptions.


It is a lot to take in, the word of God. Christians do Bible study every week for a reason. The genealogies are contradictory? How? I see no evidence whatsoever as to how they are contradictory. You only see them as contradictory because you do not believe the explanation that is given to you. Once you actually read and understand it then you'll see how it makes sense. It is so blatantly obvious, if you were to read Luke 3, that he is referring to Mary's genealogy. Joseph marries Mary and the inheritance law is applied as is told in the prophecies. Don't you see it? It jumps out at you like a frog out of hot water.

Last I checked, Muhammad commanded his male followers to beat their disobedient wives like in Sura 4:34.

Whereas Colossians 3:19, Ephesians 5:25 and 1 Peter 3:7 calls for the Husband to love their wives and treat them with respect.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Why do you lie? Seriously this is extremely dishonest. I know why you didn't post the Bible verse, here it is:
Luke 3:23

Luke 3:22-24


Nowhere is Mary's name mentioned, check the chapter. Don't come with; "genealogies were given through males only", because that isn't true; Matthew mentions several women actually - but not Mary, neither do Luke. Both are trying to show that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah by tracing the genealogy from Jesus to Joseph, to King David. Because tribal affiliation came only through the father; not the mother; Numbers 1:18 reads: And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Since Jesus had no earthly father, he cannot be from the tribe of Judah biologically. And he branch of David that would spring up would come at a time when Judah would be saved and Israel dwell safely (that was not the case, neither at Jesus time or after, not even today they do live in complete safety). Let's look at Jeremiah:


Me, lie? You asked for the Bible verse that gives the name of Mary's father and so you got it. I see the name Heli in that verse, just like you.

Remember that it is customary to mention the genealogy through the father, even though we know that the genealogy is through Mary. If you read the genealogies, they are both identical until they get to King David. Matthew goes through Solomon while Luke goes through Nathan.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
As you can see, this prophecy is clearly not about Jesus.


Why are you quoting Jeremiah 23:1-8 when I was referencing Jeremiah 22:24? I do not see what point you are trying to make.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
But there was no king of Judah sitting upon the throne constantly. That is not what i meant, here you can find better answers to this question: https://outreachjudaism.org/why-doesnt-judaism-have-a-king/

Israel's downfall was their sin but it is not a never ending cycle of sin as you say it, it is the story of restoration and relapse into sin; the Jewish people returned to the Holy land after repentance. They didn't conquer nations to expand land they destroyed their enemies who hated them, when God was on their side.


Indeed there wasn't a king of Judah sitting on the throne constantly. Zedekiah was removed as king afterall. That was judgement from God. Yet he promises that the judgement will not be the last word. God will raise up a Righteous branch and will restore both the throne and the priesthood. You can read more here: https://www.sermonwriter.com/biblical-commentary/jeremiah-3314-16/

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Of course I work it through when reading books, and sure I make assumptions, but not when I read about facts, especially not a book claimed to be written by the hand of God. Then the facts and the details must make sense, and they cannot contradict each other. And its not a small contradiction; it is totally way off the mark. That is why its been an ongoing embarassment to the Church ever since Christianity was born. There is a reason why Christianity never convinced the Jewish people - because the Jewish people are studious, they read the Torah (the books of Moses), and the prophets, and they will not abandon their whole life in order to accept a new religion if the new religion's book contains errors on almost every page.


If that is the case then why has Christianity gone on for well over 2000 years? Surely if there was some major error in The Bible that was blatantly obvious then nobody would want to follow its teachings right? Yet here we are having a humane discussion about this because the words that are written in The Bible give enough of a testimony to the things that we already know. People have gone out of their way to disprove The Bible and yet became Christians. Nobody in over 2000 years has ever come up with a convincing argument to disprove that Jesus existed. You want evidence? We are still debating it right now. That must mean The Bible is not wrong.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
You're a spineless hypocrit and a deceiving coward who can't even admit that the genealogies are in no way making sense, and that you have to make a blind assumption without any clear proof that Heli is Mary's father. It's not mentioned anywhere. Yet you write as if the matters are all clear and solid, perhaps hoping that the few people who reads this will not check the facts. You love Christianity more than truth, Jesus more than facts.

The NT writers had to make Jesus a son of a virgin because that was the NORM for the other pagan gods. And there are no "A virgin shall conceive"-prophecies in the Old Testament - in the original. But Matthew and the other gospel writers translated from greek and the greek translator had mistranslated "young woman" into virgin in Isaiah. So there you can see - it was a huge mistake by the authors, who did not read the original Hebrew Bible as was written by Moses, but they read a mistranslation, and so they made Jesus a virgin born son, and by doing this they complicated stuff incredibly much; because they had to show that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, and the only way he could be so was if he was from the tribe of his father.

I am not complicating it I'm asking you to clearly show in Luke 3 or Matthew 1 where Mary is mentioned. Her genealogy is not mentioned, period. You are lying, its lies lies lies, this is the case every time you discuss with an apologetic for Christianity. Are you people so mentally weak that you cannot discuss this honestly? Do you have to be like hysterical little children covering up the lies and hiding the truth, just becaaaaaaaaaaause it would be sooooo painful to know that Jesus is just the mythical figure of a bunch of semipagan apostate Jews?


It's a good thing to fear the LORD isn't it? The fear of the LORD drives me into action. You do not fear the LORD which will be your undoing in the end. I'm not talking about the here and now as I am talking about the final day. The genealogy makes perfect sense as it proves that Jesus is eligible to be the Messiah. If anybody else comes claiming to be the Messiah then you can show them the genealogy, as well as all the OT verses, so their claim becomes invalid.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and so he didn't inherit the original sin of Adam. Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. What more do I need to say?

I'll tell you where she is mentioned. You see, Joseph is betrothed to Mary. The OT has the inheritance law in Numbers and in Deuteronomy. When Joseph marries Mary then he receives the inheritance and so becomes the son of Heli. How could he have been called the son of Heli, when he married Mary, if Mary wasn't the daughter of Heli? There is no other explanation out there which could explain these things. I am telling you the truth and I shall stand fast to that truth until you come to that realization. What you are trying to work out, I already have.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
I believe the Old Testament, yes, and I believe that Moses and the other prophets were inspired. But I don't agree about the New Testament. Christianity is a pagan fake religion.


If you stop at the Old Testament then you are still dead in your sins. You still must do the daily slaughtering of the lamb without blemish.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
No - you have to guess. You have no idea who Mary's father was. You assume it's Heli but nowhere does it say so; it only says Heli was Joseph's father. The word of God is not pieces of puzzle to put together. When God speaks, you will understand. God doesn't have Aspergers syndrome.


Even if we go down that path, it isn't that much of a wild guess is it? Can't you see how it isn't all that random or out of the question to see that Heli is Mary's father?

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Why exactly are you posting Psalm 14:1 to me? I am not an atheist, I believe in Judaism, I will not accept Christianity. Why should I take New Testament quotes to heart when I have completely torn the NT apart? Simple fact checking with the Old Testament is sufficient to disregard the whole NT as fallacies.


Then what do you think is going to happen you when you die? I would love to know what your views are in that regard.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
I don't claim to be wise, I'm not saying that there is no God, because I believe in him. Just not in your pagan idol-on-a-stick. And it is pathetic, nay, a disgrace, that you walk around saying that people will perish if they do not agree with you, seriously do you have no shame? You are pathetic, one dishonest apologetic for a pagan religious lie, the biggest scam in the history of mankind.


Many people are afraid of confronting others with the cold harsh truth. I am not afraid to tell it plain and simple. I expect to get a lot of heat when I challenge people's beliefs with the help of The Bible. You would be surprised at how hard it is telling people that they are going to Hell when they die. Not me though, I am not ashamed for I am not ashamed of the gospel. Tell me though, what exactly would you be scammed out of? I'm not asking any material possessions from you. Getting scammed means that you are getting ripped off. What are Christians getting ripped off of when they accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior and inherit eternal life?

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
You haven't enjoyed this discussion, you are so emotionally locked up in the scam of Christianity that you do not even consider my arguments. You don't even respond to my significant points, they you just ignore.


Can you control my emotions? I can control yours as well, watch. You are completely mad and raging right now. Did it work? No? Then you saying that I didn't enjoy this discussion didn't work either. You are calling Christianity a scam now? What are we getting scammed out of by accepting Jesus Christ as our LORD and Savior?

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Yes please don't forget to tell the kids that the sacrificial system is gonna be restored when the temple is rebuilt :huh:
Don't forget to tell the kids about the pagan "Satan" who according to the New Testament, lurking around this earth looking for people to devour.
Don't forget to tell the kids that Israel would dwell safely when the branch of David would spring up.
Don't forget to tell the kids that if they don't believe in the pagan idol-on-a-stick called Jesus, they will roast forever in the fires of hell.

And don't forget to tell them that you had a long conversation with a patient man like me who tried to show you by a thousand arguments what absurd nonsense Christianity is, and who tried to help you not live your life like a fool.

Over and out.


Remember when the temple was destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days? I do! Oh yes, we must always be on our guard against the evil one. He will tempt us with having a luxurious life and yet we must not fall for that. Here are 10 prophecies that were fulfilled in 1948 regarding Israel. https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73889562&f=119&p=525625079#p525625079
I will certainly be telling the kids that they are choosing to go down a path of destruction but the LORD can save them.

Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:57pm)
Also there are other problems with the genealogy. In fact, Matthew chapter 1 & 2 are my favourite chapters in the New Testament - they are the first, and they are enough to read in order to discover the fallacy of NT. There are more errors and contradictions in Matthew 1&2 - two small chapters, than it is in any other page of the New Testament cannon.

Since Matthew's genealogy clearly differs from the genealogy given in Luke - and why there is a difference is not explained by the authors; there are no explanations for a legal and a biological genealogy, so that are just assumptions; hence we must recognize the contradiction. Otherwise there had to be an explanation. But there is none.

But that is not the only problem with Matthew's genealogy. Matthew wanted to prove a 14;14;14;14-pattern from Abraham to David, from David to capitivity in Babylon, to Christ. He claims there to be fourteen generations between: (Matthew 1:17)

And as anyone can check up; this claim is false. The reason why Matthew wrote this is because he was obsessed with prophecies, every prophecy, no matter how insignificant, had to be included in his new testament, in order to support the messiahhood of Jesus Christ.

Several names are omitted from hist list, and there is of course no 14;14;14;14-pattern between Jesus and King David, Abraham and Babylonian captivity. The funniest part is that if you count the generations from babylonic captivity to Jesus, it is only 13. It's not even 14 on Matthew's own list. And the only reason he wanted to complicate the matter so much is because of his almost psychotic fascination and obsession with prophecy. And this 14 generations from Jesus to Captivity, to David, and to Abraham, works only if you omit names from the list. Several names are gone in Matthew's genealogy. Yet he claims "ALL GENERATIONS". The genealogy given in Matthew doesn't even match the one in the Old Testament.

There is like 3-4 erroneous claims in the genealogy alone. The very first verses in the Christian Bible are false.

1. The genealogy is contradicting that one given in Luke 3.
2. The genealogy is contradicting the genealogies given in 1 chronicles chapter 1 & 2; for example: Matthew says that this 14;14;14;14 generation pattern is somehow a validation for Christ being a Messiah but no such pattern is to be found in the Old Testament, in the chapters I gave you.
3. Even in Matthew's list, there are not fourteen generations from captivity in Babylon to the birth of Jesus Christ. His own claim falls flat in almost the very sentence he wrote it!

Here you can read a very good explanation here written in close detail: https://findingtruth.info/2011/03/11/contradictions-part-6-jesuss-genealogy/


As you can see the contradiction in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 is not the only problem with the genealogy given in Matthew 1. There are errors in the book of Matthew on every page.


You do know that Luke and Matthew didn't meet with each other when writing these things down right? Luke spoke to eye witnesses and wrote up an orderly account. Did Luke go to Matthew with the intention of asking him what he would write down with the genealogy? They are writing down their versions which, quite ironically, complement each other.

What are you talking about? I counted 14 no problem. Read the text again very carefully. 14 generations from Abraham to David. 14 generations from David to the exile to Babylon. 14 generations from exile to the Messiah. Let's count the names from the Babylonic captivity to Jesus.

Jeconiah - 1
Shealtiel - 2
Zerubbabel - 3
Abihud - 4
Eliakim - 5
Azor - 6
Zadok - 7
Akim - 8
Elihud - 9
Eleazar - 10
Matthan - 11
Jacob - 12
Joseph - 13
Jesus - 14

Whose name did you leave out and why? I don't see how the genealogy contradicts that of Luke 3. I was able to follow 1 Chronicles and Matthew 1 no problem.
I think you became confused in 1 Chronicles. We want to search for the following in Chronicles:

Abraham - 1 Chronicles 1:28
Isaac - 1 Chronicles 1:28
Jacob - 1 Chronicles 1:34 (Jacob is called Israel)
Judah - 1 Chronicles 2:1
Perez - 1 Chronicles 2:4
Hezron - 1 Chronicles 2:5
Ram - 1 Chronicles 2:9
Amminadab - 1 Chronicles 2:10
Nahshon - 1 Chronicles 2:10
Salmon - 1 Chronicles 2:11
Boaz - 1 Chronicles 2:11
Obed - 1 Chronicles 2:12
Jesse - 1 Chronicles 2:12
David - 1 Chronicles 2:15

So how does that not line up with Matthew's genealogy again? I just cannot see where the contradiction lies.
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Sep 25 2018 02:34pm
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
If that is the case then why has Christianity gone on for well over 2000 years? Surely if there was some major error in The Bible that was blatantly obvious then nobody would want to follow its teachings right? Yet here we are having a humane discussion about this because the words that are written in The Bible give enough of a testimony to the things that we already know. People have gone out of their way to disprove The Bible and yet became Christians. Nobody in over 2000 years has ever come up with a convincing argument to disprove that Jesus existed. You want evidence? We are still debating it right now. That must mean The Bible is not wrong.


I want to respond to this statement first. I thought just like you; before I read the Bible for myself, like a child, and put away as far as I could, all preconceived ideas about it. And when I read I clearly understood the problem. Islam has been going on for 1400 years yet it is as alive as ever, even though there are countless problems with that book--and it is not even well written, it is a poor literally work that basically a teenager could come up with. Yet people defend this book with all their might. It is the same with the Bible, people are too emotionally attached to it. Since time immemorial, people have sought for a savior; somebody to make an atonement for them, the magic pill to cure all life's diseases, the elixir that will give you eternal life. The New Testament appeals very strongly to this very human desire; a free ticket to heaven and an easy escape from eternal damnation in hell. Who wouldn't want it? I prayed to Jesus the first time when I was about 19 years old or so, and I defined myself as a Christian when I first became religious. I wouldn't say that I'm intelligent or so, I am of a pretty average intelligence, but I do have a sort of autustic flair; I dig deep into what I study, and can read for hours and hours without getting tired, and I will analyze every detail. When I began to study Christianity with my own eyes, without a theologian's opinions, then the truth unfolded before my eyes. I saw so many problems that I just couldn't give all my life to a religion that I couldn't defend. I watched debates, I read the Bible, I read Bible commentaries; nothing really satisfied me. It was too many lengthy explanations for things that ought to be so simple, too much intellectual acrobatics to make the differences to harmonize, too many obscurities for it to be a book written by a masculine power; the list goes on and on. Of course I found obvious contradictions; but these will you deny. You deny the fallacy of Matthew attributing Old Testament prophecies to Jesus when these prophecies clearly, without a doubt, do not refer to Jesus. Matthew 2 is a chapter that just don't make any sense to me. I listened to Matthew on an audio book King James Version, and the first time, I remember it so clear, I started to deeply question Christianity was when I heard Matthew chapter 2. The reason for this is, because in Matthew 2, he makes a reference to an Old Testament prophecy that is written in Jeremiah 31. Jeremiah 31 is one of my absolute favourite chapters in the Bible. I read that chapter once when I was depressed, and it gave me so much hope; here we see Ephraim, who is also told about in Hosea, and he is totally crushed; and yet God says that he will have mercy on him - it is a very beautiful chapter. However that chapter is a chapter on Jews coming back from captivity. I have already posted it earlier in this thread I think. And Matthew, with his poor understanding of Scripture, and his eagerness to somehow add validity to the messiahhood of Jesus, attributes a prophecy concerning a Jewish woman in captivity, to something entirely different. It was then I began to really read the verses, and of course I could see that it was one big hoax.


This post was edited by Tjo on Sep 25 2018 02:54pm
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Sep 25 2018 03:11pm
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Genealogy


Your huge ego stands in the way for you to see the truth clearly. You are right, you say, but I can assure you that most people who would look at this objectively would agree with me that there are in fact contradictions in the New Testament. Even apologetics with some sense of intellectual honesty will admit this; even though they believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of all humanity.

There are many names which Matthew have omitted from the genealogy. I could go through the genealogies in Chronicles some other day and look at it in detail but right now I don't feel like; it is late and I wanna play a game before I go to sleep - I have got school tomorrow and you have seriously been successful in making me deviate from my main studies - hehe.


However, let's look at one name:


Matthew 1:8 says that Joram is the father of Uzziah:
Quote
Matthew 1:8 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 and Asaph the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah,


Quote
Matthew 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;



This is not true - let us take a look at 1 Chronicles 3:11:

Quote
1 Chronicles 3:11 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son,


Quote
1 Chronicles 3:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son,


There are other names that are omitted from Matthew's genealogy in comparison to that one in the OT (I have to check those in detail later)

But let's take a look at the apologetics explanation for this error:
From defendinginerrancy website: http://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Matthew_1.8.php

It reads:
Solution: Ahaziah was apparently the immediate son of Joram, and Uzziah was a distant “son” (descendant). Just as the word “son” in the Bible also means grandson, even so the term “begot” can be used of a father or grandfather. In other words, “begot” means “became the ancestor of,” and the one “begotten” is the “descendant of.”

Matthew, therefore, is not giving a complete chronology, but an abbreviated genealogy of Christ’s ancestry. A comparison of Matthew 1:8 and 1 Chronicles 3:11–12 reveals the three generations between Joram and Uzziah (Azariah):

This is a fine example of how dishonest apologetics are. Because one of the very reasons Matthew is giving a genealogy is to somehow prove the 14;14;14 generation pattern from Abraham --> King David --> Babylonic captivity --> Jesus Christ:

Quote
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.(Matthew 1:17 KJV)


Yet in order to achieve this; Matthew had to omit names from the genealogy. Do you understand now, what the problem is with New Testament apology?


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Sep 25 2018 09:39pm
Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
It is a lot to take in, the word of God. Christians do Bible study every week for a reason. The genealogies are contradictory? How? I see no evidence whatsoever as to how they are contradictory. You only see them as contradictory because you do not believe the explanation that is given to you. Once you actually read and understand it then you'll see how it makes sense. It is so blatantly obvious, if you were to read Luke 3, that he is referring to Mary's genealogy. Joseph marries Mary and the inheritance law is applied as is told in the prophecies. Don't you see it? It jumps out at you like a frog out of hot water.

No I don't see it because nowhere does it say that Heli is Mary's father. If it would say that, then there would be no problem I guess. Instead the reader is left with the only option to assume that. Even if I were to buy your explanation (which I don't even want to do, because I think it's silly) for the, in my opinion, obvious contradiction in the genealogies given in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, the fact remains that Matthew's still contradicts the genealogy given in the Old Testament, in the book of Chronicles.

Quote
Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

This is a false statement.

Look:

The genealogy in Chronicles:
King David
King Salomon
Rehoboam
Abia
Asa
Jehoshaphat
Joram
Ahaziah
Joash
Amaziah
Azariah
Jotham
Ahaz
Hezekiah
Manasseh
Amon
Josiah
Jehoiakim
Jeconiah
Babylonic captivity--

This is Matthew 1's:
David
Salomon
Rehoboam
Abia
Asa
Jehoshaphat
Joram
x
x
x
given as ”Uziah”
Joatham
Ahaz
Hezekiah
Manasseh
Amon
Joseiah
x
Jeconiah
--Babylonic captivity--

In order to render it as fourteen generations he had to omit four names; therefore Matthew 1:17 is a contradiction…


Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and so he didn't inherit the original sin of Adam. Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. What more do I need to say?


That is a mistranslation - you can look it up. But Christians have willfully mistranslated that Hebrew word. The original doesn't say virgin but "a young woman shall conceive" or possibly "a bride shall conceive". Check it up. It is a well known verse and easy to debunk. Like I said, Christianity is a hoax, that's why the Christians can't be honest :P

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
I'll tell you where she is mentioned. You see, Joseph is betrothed to Mary. The OT has the inheritance law in Numbers and in Deuteronomy. When Joseph marries Mary then he receives the inheritance and so becomes the son of Heli. How could he have been called the son of Heli, when he married Mary, if Mary wasn't the daughter of Heli? There is no other explanation out there which could explain these things. I am telling you the truth and I shall stand fast to that truth until you come to that realization. What you are trying to work out, I already have.


The thing is that there are numerous contradictions between the gospel writers so not a single contradiction may be explained away by an assumption.

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
If you stop at the Old Testament then you are still dead in your sins. You still must do the daily slaughtering of the lamb without blemish.


Oh yes this classic Christian lie, that there was no forgiveness in the Old Testament without blood sacrifice. You're a good boy, totally brainwashed by Christian propaganda. Don't tell me that you've read the Bible - you haven't. You know that you're lying.

I'll give you some verses;

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Psalm 51:15-19 King James Version (KJV)
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.


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Psalm 40:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.


Quote
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Hosea further prophecied accurately that the Jews would live without sacrifices, and meanwhile they should offer their calves with their lips, and Hosea wrote this prayer for them:

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Hosea 14:2-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.


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Daniel 4:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.


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Proverbs 21:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


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Proverbs 16:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.


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Micah 6:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Quote
Numbers 32:14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the Lord toward Israel.
15 For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people.
16 And they came near unto him, and said, We will build sheepfolds here for our cattle, and cities for our little ones:
17 But we ourselves will go ready armed before the children of Israel, until we have brought them unto their place: and our little ones shall dwell in the fenced cities because of the inhabitants of the land.
18 We will not return unto our houses, until the children of Israel have inherited every man his inheritance.
19 For we will not inherit with them on yonder side Jordan, or forward; because our inheritance is fallen to us on this side Jordan eastward.
20 And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the Lord to war,
21 And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the Lord, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him,
22 And the land be subdued before the Lord: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the Lord
, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the Lord.
23 But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the Lord: and be sure your sin will find you out.


There are maaaaaaaaany instances of forgiveness without sacrifice in the old testament, and sacrifices made atonement for unintentional sins only.

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Even if we go down that path, it isn't that much of a wild guess is it? Can't you see how it isn't all that random or out of the question to see that Heli is Mary's father?


You can assume it, but it's not clear, especially since Matthew and Luke are contradicting each other all the time.

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Then what do you think is going to happen you when you die? I would love to know what your views are in that regard.


I seriously don't go around thinking about death, I've no idea of what happens. But G-d says in Genesis that we return to the dust from which we were created. So I guess I return to a state of non-existence. But I hope I will live forever, in the presence of G-d. That is a very human hope I guess.

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Many people are afraid of confronting others with the cold harsh truth. I am not afraid to tell it plain and simple. I expect to get a lot of heat when I challenge people's beliefs with the help of The Bible. You would be surprised at how hard it is telling people that they are going to Hell when they die. Not me though, I am not ashamed for I am not ashamed of the gospel. Tell me though, what exactly would you be scammed out of? I'm not asking any material possessions from you. Getting scammed means that you are getting ripped off. What are Christians getting ripped off of when they accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior and inherit eternal life?


Are you nuts or are you just joking? My claim was that the New Testament is a scam = Christians do not inherit eternal life (at least not through Jesus).

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Remember when the temple was destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days? I do! Oh yes, we must always be on our guard against the evil one. He will tempt us with having a luxurious life and yet we must not fall for that.


Yes because the temple talked about in Ezekiel the latter chapters are clearly, clearly, clearly talking about a human body :huh: facepalm.

Must be a strange body Jesus had, a body where priests serve and offer sacrifices…

Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
Here are 10 prophecies that were fulfilled in 1948 regarding Israel. https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73889562&f=119&p=525625079#p525625079


Nonsense. Most of the prophecies you posted have not been fulfilled. Lol. And your "seven times more"-thing with the time and the rebirth of Israel made me laugh. Talk about taking things too far. You don't know how to read prophecy. Do you think this some child's game where you can just copy and paste and calculate just the way you want? You seriously take things out of context to an extent that I have never seen the like.


Quote (CPK001 @ Sep 25 2018 02:16pm)
You do know that Luke and Matthew didn't meet with each other when writing these things down right? Luke spoke to eye witnesses and wrote up an orderly account. Did Luke go to Matthew with the intention of asking him what he would write down with the genealogy? They are writing down their versions which, quite ironically, complement each other.

What are you talking about? I counted 14 no problem. Read the text again very carefully. 14 generations from Abraham to David. 14 generations from David to the exile to Babylon. 14 generations from exile to the Messiah. Let's count the names from the Babylonic captivity to Jesus.

Jeconiah - 1
Shealtiel - 2
Zerubbabel - 3
Abihud - 4
Eliakim - 5
Azor - 6
Zadok - 7
Akim - 8
Elihud - 9
Eleazar - 10
Matthan - 11
Jacob - 12
Joseph - 13
Jesus - 14

Whose name did you leave out and why? I don't see how the genealogy contradicts that of Luke 3. I was able to follow 1 Chronicles and Matthew 1 no problem.
I think you became confused in 1 Chronicles. We want to search for the following in Chronicles:

Abraham - 1 Chronicles 1:28
Isaac - 1 Chronicles 1:28
Jacob - 1 Chronicles 1:34 (Jacob is called Israel)
Judah - 1 Chronicles 2:1
Perez - 1 Chronicles 2:4
Hezron - 1 Chronicles 2:5
Ram - 1 Chronicles 2:9
Amminadab - 1 Chronicles 2:10
Nahshon - 1 Chronicles 2:10
Salmon - 1 Chronicles 2:11
Boaz - 1 Chronicles 2:11
Obed - 1 Chronicles 2:12
Jesse - 1 Chronicles 2:12
David - 1 Chronicles 2:15

So how does that not line up with Matthew's genealogy again? I just cannot see where the contradiction lies.


Read my answer. There are contradicting accounts from King David to Babylonic captivity.

But seriously your post on the "fulfilled" prophecies concerning Israel actually made me laugh. May I ask you how old are you?

Quote
zekiel told the Israelites, who had lost control of their homeland, that they would be punished for 430 years. It is from this that we can pinpoint 1948, the rebirth of Israel. Grant R. Jeffrey explains it further.

1 - Ezekiel said Israel would be punished for 430 years because they turned away from God. Israel lost control of their homeland to Babylon.
2 - Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed Israel to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland but only a small number returned. This return took place around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
3- Because most of the exiles chose to stay in Babylon rather than returning to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The book of Leviticus explains why.

Leviticus 26:18 - "If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over."
Leviticus 26:21 - "If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve."
Leviticus 26:24 - "I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over."
Leviticus 26:28 - "then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over."

So from here we need to do some Mathematics. 360 * 7 = 2520 years. However, these years are based on a 360-day lunar calendar because that's how they worked out years in the Bible. What we need to do now is convert that to a modern day calendar of 365.25 so let's do it.

2520 * 360 = 907,200
907,200 / 365.25 = 2,483.8 (round .77 to .8)

So now we add 2483.8 to 536.4 BC.
-536.4 + 2483.8 = 1947.4.
However, since there is no year between 1BC and 1AD (No zero) We add +1 to make up for that!
1947.4 + 1 = 1948.4!

Israel was proclaimed as a nation on 14th may 1948. (Written by you)


This was the most far-fetched thing I have ever read. Always good that you can add numbers to your explanations if they don't add up :)

This post was edited by Tjo on Sep 25 2018 09:48pm
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Sep 26 2018 09:19pm
I've had a few days off and so here I am again. This is getting repetitive, even for me of all people. We are doing a circular argument. We can keep going back and forth, posting essays and getting nowhere or we can end this right now. You even said that I was successful in deviating you from your main studies.

Shall we agree to disagree and end it right here?
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