Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 24 2018 07:55pm)
And i love that you lack even basic self awareness and it makes you miss that i couldnt possibly have been referencing you.
Youre trying desparately to shoehorn in the geneology when its clearly a contradiction.
No I'm not. I just know that I am right.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Reading God's word shouldn't be like putting a jigsaw together, especially when it comes to such a simple thing as a genealogy. I don't get a thing because the genealogies are contradictory. Mary is not mentioned in the genealogy, she is not mentioned in Luke 3. There is no way, no way, that if you were to read Luke 3 that you would somehow think that it is Mary's genealogy. There is no way - you must read Matthew 1, then take away Joseph being the son of Heli, or assume it means son-in-law, or legal son or whatever, and then you have to add Mary's name in there, so as to show that clearly Joseph is the legal son of Heli or show their connection. But Mary's name isn't there. The apologetics explanation is ridiculous, and you know that as well. You would never accept such far-fetched explanations for any other religion. If you found such mistakes in the Quran you would discard it, not trying to make it fit with the help of acrobatics and absurd assumptions.
It is a lot to take in, the word of God. Christians do Bible study every week for a reason. The genealogies are contradictory? How? I see no evidence whatsoever as to how they are contradictory. You only see them as contradictory because you do not believe the explanation that is given to you. Once you actually read and understand it then you'll see how it makes sense. It is so blatantly obvious, if you were to read Luke 3, that he is referring to Mary's genealogy. Joseph marries Mary and the inheritance law is applied as is told in the prophecies. Don't you see it? It jumps out at you like a frog out of hot water.
Last I checked, Muhammad commanded his male followers to beat their disobedient wives like in Sura 4:34.
Whereas Colossians 3:19, Ephesians 5:25 and 1 Peter 3:7 calls for the Husband to love their wives and treat them with respect.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Why do you lie? Seriously this is extremely dishonest. I know why you didn't post the Bible verse, here it is:
Luke 3:23
Luke 3:22-24
Nowhere is Mary's name mentioned, check the chapter. Don't come with; "genealogies were given through males only", because that isn't true; Matthew mentions several women actually - but not Mary, neither do Luke. Both are trying to show that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah by tracing the genealogy from Jesus to Joseph, to King David. Because tribal affiliation came only through the father; not the mother; Numbers 1:18 reads: And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
Since Jesus had no earthly father, he cannot be from the tribe of Judah biologically. And he branch of David that would spring up would come at a time when Judah would be saved and Israel dwell safely (that was not the case, neither at Jesus time or after, not even today they do live in complete safety). Let's look at Jeremiah:
Me, lie? You asked for the Bible verse that gives the name of Mary's father and so you got it. I see the name Heli in that verse, just like you.
Remember that it is customary to mention the genealogy through the father, even though we know that the genealogy is through Mary. If you read the genealogies, they are both identical until they get to King David. Matthew goes through Solomon while Luke goes through Nathan.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
As you can see, this prophecy is clearly not about Jesus.
Why are you quoting Jeremiah 23:1-8 when I was referencing Jeremiah 22:24? I do not see what point you are trying to make.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
But there was no king of Judah sitting upon the throne constantly. That is not what i meant, here you can find better answers to this question:
https://outreachjudaism.org/why-doesnt-judaism-have-a-king/Israel's downfall was their sin but it is not a never ending cycle of sin as you say it, it is the story of restoration and relapse into sin; the Jewish people returned to the Holy land after repentance. They didn't conquer nations to expand land they destroyed their enemies who hated them, when God was on their side.
Indeed there wasn't a king of Judah sitting on the throne constantly. Zedekiah was removed as king afterall. That was judgement from God. Yet he promises that the judgement will not be the last word. God will raise up a Righteous branch and will restore both the throne and the priesthood. You can read more here:
https://www.sermonwriter.com/biblical-commentary/jeremiah-3314-16/ Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Of course I work it through when reading books, and sure I make assumptions, but not when I read about facts, especially not a book claimed to be written by the hand of God. Then the facts and the details must make sense, and they cannot contradict each other. And its not a small contradiction; it is totally way off the mark. That is why its been an ongoing embarassment to the Church ever since Christianity was born. There is a reason why Christianity never convinced the Jewish people - because the Jewish people are studious, they read the Torah (the books of Moses), and the prophets, and they will not abandon their whole life in order to accept a new religion if the new religion's book contains errors on almost every page.
If that is the case then why has Christianity gone on for well over 2000 years? Surely if there was some major error in The Bible that was blatantly obvious then nobody would want to follow its teachings right? Yet here we are having a humane discussion about this because the words that are written in The Bible give enough of a testimony to the things that we already know. People have gone out of their way to disprove The Bible and yet became Christians. Nobody in over 2000 years has ever come up with a convincing argument to disprove that Jesus existed. You want evidence? We are still debating it right now. That must mean The Bible is not wrong.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
You're a spineless hypocrit and a deceiving coward who can't even admit that the genealogies are in no way making sense, and that you have to make a blind assumption without any clear proof that Heli is Mary's father. It's not mentioned anywhere. Yet you write as if the matters are all clear and solid, perhaps hoping that the few people who reads this will not check the facts. You love Christianity more than truth, Jesus more than facts.
The NT writers had to make Jesus a son of a virgin because that was the NORM for the other pagan gods. And there are no "A virgin shall conceive"-prophecies in the Old Testament - in the original. But Matthew and the other gospel writers translated from greek and the greek translator had mistranslated "young woman" into virgin in Isaiah. So there you can see - it was a huge mistake by the authors, who did not read the original Hebrew Bible as was written by Moses, but they read a mistranslation, and so they made Jesus a virgin born son, and by doing this they complicated stuff incredibly much; because they had to show that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, and the only way he could be so was if he was from the tribe of his father.
I am not complicating it I'm asking you to clearly show in Luke 3 or Matthew 1 where Mary is mentioned. Her genealogy is not mentioned, period. You are lying, its lies lies lies, this is the case every time you discuss with an apologetic for Christianity. Are you people so mentally weak that you cannot discuss this honestly? Do you have to be like hysterical little children covering up the lies and hiding the truth, just becaaaaaaaaaaause it would be sooooo painful to know that Jesus is just the mythical figure of a bunch of semipagan apostate Jews?
It's a good thing to fear the LORD isn't it? The fear of the LORD drives me into action. You do not fear the LORD which will be your undoing in the end. I'm not talking about the here and now as I am talking about the final day. The genealogy makes perfect sense as it proves that Jesus is eligible to be the Messiah. If anybody else comes claiming to be the Messiah then you can show them the genealogy, as well as all the OT verses, so their claim becomes invalid.
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and so he didn't inherit the original sin of Adam. Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:
The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. What more do I need to say?
I'll tell you where she is mentioned. You see, Joseph is betrothed to Mary. The OT has the inheritance law in Numbers and in Deuteronomy. When Joseph marries Mary then he receives the inheritance and so becomes the son of Heli. How could he have been called the son of Heli, when he married Mary, if Mary wasn't the daughter of Heli? There is no other explanation out there which could explain these things. I am telling you the truth and I shall stand fast to that truth until you come to that realization. What you are trying to work out, I already have.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
I believe the Old Testament, yes, and I believe that Moses and the other prophets were inspired. But I don't agree about the New Testament. Christianity is a pagan fake religion.
If you stop at the Old Testament then you are still dead in your sins. You still must do the daily slaughtering of the lamb without blemish.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
No - you have to guess. You have no idea who Mary's father was. You assume it's Heli but nowhere does it say so; it only says Heli was Joseph's father. The word of God is not pieces of puzzle to put together. When God speaks, you will understand. God doesn't have Aspergers syndrome.
Even if we go down that path, it isn't that much of a wild guess is it? Can't you see how it isn't all that random or out of the question to see that Heli is Mary's father?
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Why exactly are you posting Psalm 14:1 to me? I am not an atheist, I believe in Judaism, I will not accept Christianity. Why should I take New Testament quotes to heart when I have completely torn the NT apart? Simple fact checking with the Old Testament is sufficient to disregard the whole NT as fallacies.
Then what do you think is going to happen you when you die? I would love to know what your views are in that regard.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
I don't claim to be wise, I'm not saying that there is no God, because I believe in him. Just not in your pagan idol-on-a-stick. And it is pathetic, nay, a disgrace, that you walk around saying that people will perish if they do not agree with you, seriously do you have no shame? You are pathetic, one dishonest apologetic for a pagan religious lie, the biggest scam in the history of mankind.
Many people are afraid of confronting others with the cold harsh truth. I am not afraid to tell it plain and simple. I expect to get a lot of heat when I challenge people's beliefs with the help of The Bible. You would be surprised at how hard it is telling people that they are going to Hell when they die. Not me though, I am not ashamed for I am not ashamed of the gospel. Tell me though, what exactly would you be scammed out of? I'm not asking any material possessions from you. Getting scammed means that you are getting ripped off. What are Christians getting ripped off of when they accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior and inherit eternal life?
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
You haven't enjoyed this discussion, you are so emotionally locked up in the scam of Christianity that you do not even consider my arguments. You don't even respond to my significant points, they you just ignore.
Can you control my emotions? I can control yours as well, watch. You are completely mad and raging right now. Did it work? No? Then you saying that I didn't enjoy this discussion didn't work either. You are calling Christianity a scam now? What are we getting scammed out of by accepting Jesus Christ as our LORD and Savior?
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:11pm)
Yes please don't forget to tell the kids that the sacrificial system is gonna be restored when the temple is rebuilt :huh:
Don't forget to tell the kids about the pagan "Satan" who according to the New Testament, lurking around this earth looking for people to devour.
Don't forget to tell the kids that Israel would dwell safely when the branch of David would spring up.
Don't forget to tell the kids that if they don't believe in the pagan idol-on-a-stick called Jesus, they will roast forever in the fires of hell.
And don't forget to tell them that you had a long conversation with a patient man like me who tried to show you by a thousand arguments what absurd nonsense Christianity is, and who tried to help you not live your life like a fool.
Over and out.
Remember when the temple was destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days? I do! Oh yes, we must always be on our guard against the evil one. He will tempt us with having a luxurious life and yet we must not fall for that. Here are 10 prophecies that were fulfilled in 1948 regarding Israel.
https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73889562&f=119&p=525625079#p525625079 I will certainly be telling the kids that they are choosing to go down a path of destruction but the LORD can save them.
Quote (Tjo @ Sep 24 2018 08:57pm)
Also there are other problems with the genealogy. In fact, Matthew chapter 1 & 2 are my favourite chapters in the New Testament - they are the first, and they are enough to read in order to discover the fallacy of NT. There are more errors and contradictions in Matthew 1&2 - two small chapters, than it is in any other page of the New Testament cannon.
Since Matthew's genealogy clearly differs from the genealogy given in Luke - and why there is a difference is not explained by the authors; there are no explanations for a legal and a biological genealogy, so that are just assumptions; hence we must recognize the contradiction. Otherwise there had to be an explanation. But there is none.
But that is not the only problem with Matthew's genealogy. Matthew wanted to prove a 14;14;14;14-pattern from Abraham to David, from David to capitivity in Babylon, to Christ. He claims there to be fourteen generations between: (Matthew 1:17)
And as anyone can check up; this claim is false. The reason why Matthew wrote this is because he was obsessed with prophecies, every prophecy, no matter how insignificant, had to be included in his new testament, in order to support the messiahhood of Jesus Christ.
Several names are omitted from hist list, and there is of course no 14;14;14;14-pattern between Jesus and King David, Abraham and Babylonian captivity. The funniest part is that if you count the generations from babylonic captivity to Jesus, it is only 13. It's not even 14 on Matthew's own list. And the only reason he wanted to complicate the matter so much is because of his almost psychotic fascination and obsession with prophecy. And this 14 generations from Jesus to Captivity, to David, and to Abraham, works only if you omit names from the list. Several names are gone in Matthew's genealogy. Yet he claims "ALL GENERATIONS". The genealogy given in Matthew doesn't even match the one in the Old Testament.
There is like 3-4 erroneous claims in the genealogy alone. The very first verses in the Christian Bible are false.
1. The genealogy is contradicting that one given in Luke 3.
2. The genealogy is contradicting the genealogies given in 1 chronicles chapter 1 & 2; for example: Matthew says that this 14;14;14;14 generation pattern is somehow a validation for Christ being a Messiah but no such pattern is to be found in the Old Testament, in the chapters I gave you.
3. Even in Matthew's list, there are not fourteen generations from captivity in Babylon to the birth of Jesus Christ. His own claim falls flat in almost the very sentence he wrote it!
Here you can read a very good explanation here written in close detail:
https://findingtruth.info/2011/03/11/contradictions-part-6-jesuss-genealogy/As you can see the contradiction in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 is not the only problem with the genealogy given in Matthew 1. There are errors in the book of Matthew on every page.
You do know that Luke and Matthew didn't meet with each other when writing these things down right? Luke spoke to eye witnesses and wrote up an orderly account. Did Luke go to Matthew with the intention of asking him what he would write down with the genealogy? They are writing down their versions which, quite ironically, complement each other.
What are you talking about? I counted 14 no problem. Read the text again very carefully. 14 generations from Abraham to David. 14 generations from David to the exile to Babylon. 14 generations from exile to the Messiah. Let's count the names from the Babylonic captivity to Jesus.
Jeconiah - 1
Shealtiel - 2
Zerubbabel - 3
Abihud - 4
Eliakim - 5
Azor - 6
Zadok - 7
Akim - 8
Elihud - 9
Eleazar - 10
Matthan - 11
Jacob - 12
Joseph - 13
Jesus - 14
Whose name did you leave out and why? I don't see how the genealogy contradicts that of Luke 3. I was able to follow 1 Chronicles and Matthew 1 no problem.
I think you became confused in 1 Chronicles. We want to search for the following in Chronicles:
Abraham - 1 Chronicles 1:28
Isaac - 1 Chronicles 1:28
Jacob - 1 Chronicles 1:34 (Jacob is called Israel)
Judah - 1 Chronicles 2:1
Perez - 1 Chronicles 2:4
Hezron - 1 Chronicles 2:5
Ram - 1 Chronicles 2:9
Amminadab - 1 Chronicles 2:10
Nahshon - 1 Chronicles 2:10
Salmon - 1 Chronicles 2:11
Boaz - 1 Chronicles 2:11
Obed - 1 Chronicles 2:12
Jesse - 1 Chronicles 2:12
David - 1 Chronicles 2:15
So how does that not line up with Matthew's genealogy again? I just cannot see where the contradiction lies.