Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.

The Old Testament is instructions. It tells how to live in this world, how to get the best life possible, and it is by being moral, because G-d is moral. The OT has nothing to do with the superstitions of the NT and it is obvious that most xristians do not read the whole Bible, because the NT and OT are so different. It becomes obvious when you read through the OT, unbiased, that the NT is so different in style that it becomes clear that the two books really has nothing to do with each other.

In the OT, the sabbath day is regarded as the most sacred day, and to work on it was punished by death. Over and over again it is referred to as the LORD's day. Yet Jesus comes along and says that Sabbath is for man. REALLY?! No. Some self-hating Jews who wanted to assimilate into the Gentile world wrote this stuff. It becomes obvious when you take off all bias. I read the works of theology written by famous theologians and it is almost amusing to see how much they wrestle with words, how much intellectual acrobatics and absurd interpretations they do in order to reconcile the old with the new. Just read a few pages into the NT and I quickly realized that something was terribly wrong.

Israel was corrupted by sin during Jesus' time, and the Jews had developed a xenophobic attitude towards the world which left many Jews embarassed about their roots, and this explains the obvious antisemitism in the NT. The authors of the NT has just taken stuff from the OT and made a big story about it, sometimes they tried too hard, because they wanted to smash in as much prophecy as possible into the NT.

But what is most disturbing in the NT is that it says that no one can live a righteous life. This is blatantly not true and it has poisoned the mind of many Christians, who (and I speak of radicals) view every human being as evil, disconnected from G-d, etc. When the OT CLEARLY tells us that what is required is to obey the entire law, and there are numerous examples of men in the Bible who were blameless, Abraham being one of them, Job was another. There are many examples of G-d talking about the restoration of Israel and the subsequent return to him and his ways, that Israel will obey all his commandments etc. You do not have to be addicted to sin. There is a way out. I am not saying that I am out of it, but I am sure there is. You do not have to be addicted to anger, adultery, greed etc. You can find a level of peace in THIS LIFE, so that you do not NEED to look for stimulation/pleasure/comfort from destructive sources.

I am just so weary of the Christian dogma and that you can never, ever, ever, ever live a life that is pleasing to G-d. That is simply not true.

Sure no one can achieve that state of glory which Adam had, probably, but the LORD is not demanding that either. After G-d had given to Moses, the law, and the prophecies, he said to him; "This word is very near to you, and you can do it!".

You do not have to be stuck in sin. No matter what the NT tells you.

The Old Testament does have a lot of instructions. It is known as the Law. I encourage you to read Romans Chapter 6 and Chapter 7. It talks about how we are no longer under the law but under grace. It talks about how sin ruled under the law because it showed us how far we have fallen short of the Glory of God. Again I encourage you to read those 2 chapters.



Let's investigate the Sabbath Day. Exodus 20:8-11 - 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There are many Bible verses which back this up which has been retained in the Mosaic Law: (Exodus 16:23–29; 31:14–16; 35:2–3; Deuteronomy 5:12–15; Nehemiah 13:15–22; Jeremiah 17:21–27).

In Mark 2:23-28 - 23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

We keep reading on and we see that Jesus heals a man on the Sabbath. Listen very carefully to what he says in Mark 3:4 - 4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

The New Testament records Jews and converts to Judaism meeting in synagogues on the Sabbath: (Mark 6:2; Luke 4:31; Luke 13:10–16; Acts 13:14, 27, 42–44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4). Since there is no work being done on the Sabbath, this is the ideal day to have worship services. Yet the New Testament does not say that the Sabbath be the day of worship as the Church is not under the Mosaic Law. The Church is under the New Covenant, established by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Then we read Acts 3:2, Acts 17:11, Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 where the early Christians were studying the scriptures and worshiping every day of the week and not only Saturday or Sunday.

What we see is that Jesus Christ did not change God's Sabbath day. As a matter of fact, He showed the true purpose and intent of the Sabbath. Jesus often showed that the Sabbath, and particularly His teachings and actions on that day, prefigured the coming messianic age-the time of the Kingdom of God-as one of healing, freedom and restoration for all humanity.

http://churchofgodtwincities.org/lit/booklets/sunset-sunset-gods-sabbath-rest/was-sabbath-changed-new-testament.htm
https://www.gotquestions.org/Sabbath-day-rest.html



The Old Testament was all about the coming of a Savior. The four Gospels shows the Savior coming and then the rest of the Bible looks back at the point in time when we were saved by the Savior. The New Testament will quote Old Testament verses to show how it predicted the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 9:9 - Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

John 12:14-15 - 14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, as it is written:

15 “Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion;
see, your king is coming,
seated on a donkey’s colt.”



Romans 3:10-12 - 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Romans 7:7 - 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The Old Testament Mosaic Law showed us how far we have fallen short of the Glory of God. There was not one person who could ever fulfill all those laws that were written. As a matter of fact, everyone would work as hard as they could to try and break as many laws as they could. Back then the Jews had the privilege to see God first hand. They saw the miracles he performed in Egypt as well as Moses. Yet even that was not enough. Now here we are many years later with technology at our fingertips. If the Jews back then who were in the best possible scenario couldn't obey the law and be righteous then what hope do we have? Absolutely none.

The biggest figure in the Old Testament was Abraham. Let's see how blameless he was. Read Genesis 12:10-18. Abram is concerned with the Egyptians so he tells his wife to pretend that she is his sister. So Abram is selling out his wife to Pharaoh. Would you call that blameless?

Now let's look at Genesis 16. Sarai bore no children for Abram so she convinced Abram to sleep with her Egyptian slave, Hagar. Would you call that blameless?

Another post we can look at Job.



If you were able to fulfill the Law, wouldn't you love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? One final verse I'll want you to read is Luke 18:9-14

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

But Jesus rebelled against rabbinic judaism, as history shows that the religion of the Jews unfortunately became corrupted, and to a great extent it is today. There was antisemitism in ancient Greece and Rome but some ancient greek historians had a tremendous admiration for the Jews and their religion, and one historian stated that the Mosaic religion was pure and it was later that the Jews developed this Rabbinical, xenophobic religion with all its absurd doctrines. Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that it is forbidden to heal, help, care for others on the Sabbath, but what is forbidden is work, and that is the normal work of everyday life. It is obvious that Jesus was very much against this Rabbinical nonsense, and I give him credit for that.

You say that the Church is not under Mosaic law, and that is a big problem, because "Thou shalt not murder", and "Thou shalt love G-d" are two commandments of the Mosaic law... What do you mean that you are under grace? Nothing changes, there was grace in the Old Testament too. Read through it. There are multiple occasions where people are forgiven without sacrifice, without Jesus, without atonement. Moses says repeatedly that G-d is merciful and that he does not punish every time, but that sin is dangerous and you can die even at the first sin. This is true today so I do not understand what you mean by you are under grace? Sin carries with it the same awful punishments today as it did three thousand years ago. You still hurt yourself and others, you still damage yourself and others, you still shorten your life, you still expose yourself to immediate danger. Exactly how does grace replace the Mosaic law? Sure, it takes away the sacrifical system, but more? Is adultery no longer a sin? And how exactly does it differ now today compared to Mosaic time? (I do not mean to argue and I look forward to a theological discussion, but this whole concept of grace>law is so diffuse and it stands on a very shaky ground).



Wrong. The Old Testament is certainly not "all about a coming savior" but Christians takes abstract texts from the Prophets to support their ideas. The Old Testament's first five books are about the story of the Creation, and primarily about the history of the Jewish people and the land of Israel. It is about G-d, his character and commandments, and instructions to a good life, and vivid accounts of the disastrous consequences of sin. The other books are about the conquest of Canaan, their final settlement in the land of Israel, the stories of their kings, their relationship with G-d. The Old Testament actually contains only a few "messianic" prophecies, because nowhere in the Old Testament does it state clearly, frankly anything about a coming Messiah that would cause peace in this world, but the words that are usually interpreted to be about a person could be symbolic, no one knows. There are none, and I repeat, clear prophecies regarding any type of Messiah whatsoever in the OT. Nor is there about an afterlife, nor of a hell. Not even about the end of the world, but notice how the prophets uses language which could be descriptions of the end of the world, when they talk about the fall of empires. "The Sun shall be darkened and the Moon shall not give its light" etc, there are numerous such references and how G-d will shake the world terribly, etc, I do not have the verses in question right now before me but I could look them up if you want. And these are verses that the prophets obviously are NOT using as any kind of end-times prophecy. Rather it is symbolic language to convey the powerful and terrible force with which G-d would use to erase kingdoms, kings etc. There are no prophecies in the Old Testament concerning heaven/hell/end times whatsoever. Though there are poems, but these are rather poetic wishes, it is never stated by G-d himself.

Now let's take a look at Zecariah 9:



This prophecy concerns the restoration of Israel, can't you see that? He is talking about his people (=the Jews) being restored to their homeland. There is good reason to believe that this prophecy was fulfilled long before Jesus even walked upon the earth.



Yeah I know the theology of the New Testament. But it is inconsistent with the Old. See this quote: Psalm 119:67: Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. The psalm was probably written by King David but no one knows.

Job 1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9: These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

2 kings 18:6: For he clave to the Lord, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses.

And that no man is perfect is obvious to G-d and G-d does not require it even.

Abraham was called a friend of G-d in spite of what he did, so how can you accuse him for not being right with G-d when he explicitly tells you in the book that Abraham was his friend?



G-d is the source of life and we should cleave to him because the same source of life is the same source of everything that sustains life, including love, friendship, beauty, etc. I do not "trust" in my righteousness and you can still be focused on keeping the law without becoming proud and arrogant about it. The problem with the Pharisees was not so much that they prided themselves for keeping the law, but that they had no love for their neighbor and used the law as a means of puffing up their own egos and poking in the eyes of their fellow men. Such behavior you can see among all people, even Christians, so that awareness of not being able to keep the law does not much to prevent it. What it is Jesus was angry about, and would be angry about today also, I believe, is that kind of angry moralism which is so obnoxious to everyone, including G-d of course. Of course, the Pharisees did not keep the law. And I do believe that all do commit sins in life, but to live in a continual state of sinning, everyday, even every hour, is obviously something that can be changed, and G-d requires that, demands that, and moreover he says it is possible. Many times in the Bible, when the Jews returned after a period of captivity, G-d circumcised their hearts so that they kept all his commandments. He promised to do so in many instances. And G-d nowhere in the Bible states that we are supposed to return to a state of Adamic innocence, because that we cannot. The laws in the Bible are reasonable, and I believe that you can live by them. And I am not saying that I do, and I hope we can leave our egos out of this discussion. I just wanted to point out that the theology in the NT about that state of constant sinning and the impossibility to become friend with G-d without Jesus has no basis in the OT. Because as I said, many times G-d forgives people in the OT without sacrifice, without Jesus. Many times when the Jews came back from captivity he said he had caused such distress upon them that they would diligently keep his law - knowing what awful consequences sin brought with it.

I read an interesting book about the atonement on Jesus this morning by Barnes and it was very interesting. I do not know yet whether I should accept Jesus as my savior, but right now I am too skeptical. And you might be under grace, and I do not doubt that you are, but if you commit adultery, murder, and keep a mind full of vanity and selfishness, you will feel impure, you will have no peace, you will feel as if you are at war with G-d, no matter how many times a day you pray to Jesus. There is no peace to the wicked, said Isaiah. Your heart and soul is not magically purified and you are not transformed to an innocent little lamb just by praying to Jesus, but by persevering in right-doing, by supplications, spiritual exercise, a state of mind can be achieved when you feel a peace that is outerwordly, and when your heart is made MORE pure at least, when you can feel unconditional love towards your fellow man. The hebrew word for "seek" G-d means actually not simply seek, but to diligently seek, to seek with all strength and soul. No one finds G-d and his best ways over night: it is a process, it is a treasure that you must seek with all your heart, soul, and strength, and not give up until you have achieved a state of being that affords you peace and joy that is much unlike the temporary, restless stimulation that you get by sinful and destructive activities. The longer you walk with G-d, the more diligently you keep his commandments, the more you seek him and the more diligently you strive to improve yourself, the closer you will get to him, the more your inner peace will increase, as your joy and security, and confidence. G-d wants you to live your life to the fullest now. You are not supposed to just accept the darkness of sin with all its anxiety and restlessness, in a gloomy wait for death and a possible future existence in Heaven. If that was the case G-d would bring you to heaven the moment you prayed to Jesus.

Jesus was the sacrafice.. the perfect sacrafice... we no longer need to pay the price of sin (which is death) because Jesus already paid it for us... this is grace

whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life

Jesus is my savior hallelujah

This post was edited by caswallen on May 20 2018 04:59pm

yet people keep dying, even christians...

we die only to be resurrected

Religion is people attempting to reach out to god

Jesus was gods attempt to reach out to us, God loves us all

Jesus and the Pharisees clashed many times. The Pharisees added to God's law to make themselves look good while looking down on others.

Matthew 23 is a very good example of one such clashes. I guess it comes down to who you will choose to listen to.



We are under the second Covenant with God. The New Covenant was ushered in by Jesus Christ when he died and rose again on the Cross. Before the second Covenant was the first Covenant, which was given to Moses to pass onto the Israelites's. If the first Covenant was sufficient then there would be no need for a second Covenant.

Let's put it this say, you owe your Master $10,000,000. You know that you can't pay it back. One day your Master calls you in and demands payment right then and there. What do you do when you have to give an account and you can't pay him back? You will say that you can't pay it back. You will have to throw yourself onto the mercy of your Master. Now imagine if he then went and cancelled that debt and wipes it clean. Who owns the burden of that $10,000,000? He does! Jesus came and took the punishment that we deserve. He owned that so we didn't have to.

Now what if you wanted to try and actually pay off that debt by relying on good works? Every good works would net you only 1 cent each. Yet while trying to pay back that debt, you are accumulating that debt at a much higher rate.

So what does it mean that we are under Grace? It means that we know that we cannot pay the debt but through the Grace of God that debt was wiped clean. Yes we still sin but you can rest assured that the payment of that sin has been dealt with once and for all. In the Mosaic time the blood of goats and bulls would be the sacrifice to pay for those sins. This would also happen daily.



Even from the beginning, when God spoke to the serpent there was a hint that he was going to fix the problem. "You will strike his heel (the crucifixion) and he will crush your head."

Then when Abraham was to sacrifice his son Isaac. God stopped him and supplied a lamb. It was like a switcheroo.

Then God rescued Israel from the Egyptians then the Law was given out. Do you notice the order of sequence? Israel was first saved then the Law was given. Just like now, we are first saved then we are called to live Christian lives.

Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

God also said to David that "he will establish the throne of his kingdom forever." 2 Samuel 7:13.

Then we have 1 Kings 9:5 - I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’

Here is the Old Testament promising that there will come a ruler over Israel and that he will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Also, what about Daniel 12? The very title of that chapter is called "The End Times".



http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73889562&f=119&p=525625079#p525625079

All I am saying that Abraham, as good as he was, wasn't completely blameless.



I agree. God did indeed forgive people in the Old Testament without sacrifice, without Jesus. Let's look at Romans 3:25-26 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



I agree with all of this. It all comes down to loving God. It is the Greatest Commandment. It will also be a thing that you will have to constantly remind yourself and wrestle with for the rest of your life.

Matthew 22:34-40 - 34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”