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Dec 11 2014 09:36am
Quote (Caedus @ Dec 10 2014 05:50pm)
Against injustice, lying, and greed?

Injustice doesn't exist. This is because justice doesn't exist. Try to answer the question "What is justice" before talking about preventing injustice.

Everyone lies. We wouldn't get anything done without it. You need a powerful person to be able to control the weak masses. Society doesn't function without.

The pursuit of money, called greed to some, is what the average person chases. If you rally against greed it is only because you are jealous of the wealth another possesses.


Maybe some of the protesters are there because of material jealousy.

However as you said it is the average person who is in the pursuit of material wealth...and the average person does not engage in such protests

So it very well may be that these protesters are not there jealous of those who have acquired material wealth, but there for alternate non material reasons
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Dec 11 2014 10:08am
Quote (Caedus @ Dec 10 2014 05:50pm)
Against injustice, lying, and greed?

Injustice doesn't exist. This is because justice doesn't exist. Try to answer the question "What is justice" before talking about preventing injustice.

Everyone lies. We wouldn't get anything done without it. You need a powerful person to be able to control the weak masses. Society doesn't function without.

The pursuit of money, called greed to some, is what the average person chases. If you rally against greed it is only because you are jealous of the wealth another possesses.


capitalist scum!

that is wealth that was accumulated not by their own effort but by the labour of the working class who are forced into mutually beneficial yet horribly one sided employment arrangements in order to survive

arrangements that extract the full value of their labour in exchange for returning a fraction of the wealth they've generated for which they are expected to be greatful

this is like hiring a man to pick an apple for you and paying him with the stem
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Dec 11 2014 10:17am
Quote (duffman316 @ Dec 11 2014 10:08am)
capitalist scum!

that is wealth that was accumulated not by their own effort but by the labour of the working class who are forced into mutually beneficial yet horribly one sided employment arrangements in order to survive

arrangements that extract the full value of their labour in exchange for returning a fraction of the wealth they've generated for which they are expected to be greatful

this is like hiring a man to pick an apple for you and paying him with the stem


the average worker comes into their workplace with no capital invested and no liability assumed.

people who take millions from their employees put in hundreds of thousands in many cases, and they except millions of dollars of liability

if you want money out you better come in with a capital investment or accept liability of your own work

profit sharing companies, like the company i work for, still dont pay out shit. i get essentially 3/4 an extra paycheck per year. which additionally factors into compensation and raises.

what youre saying has merit, but in more cases than people think a sharp piece of metal in a cupcake or a faulty seatbelt is the only thing stopping alot of employers from going out of business or at least crippling their profit margins for large periods of time
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Dec 11 2014 11:11am
Quote (thesnipa @ 11 Dec 2014 11:17)
the average worker comes into their workplace with no capital invested and no liability assumed.

people who take millions from their employees put in hundreds of thousands in many cases, and they except millions of dollars of liability

if you want money out you better come in with a capital investment or accept liability of your own work

profit sharing companies, like the company i work for, still dont pay out shit. i get essentially 3/4 an extra paycheck per year. which additionally factors into compensation and raises.

what youre saying has merit, but in more cases than people think a sharp piece of metal in a cupcake or a faulty seatbelt is the only thing stopping alot of employers from going out of business or at least crippling their profit margins for large periods of time



And here is where You and Duff aren't really that far off, the employer needs to make a profit to stay in business, the margins have to justify the risks otherwise simple investments would suffice
and the business would be liquidated. There is no reason a satisfying ratio of employee compensation and employer profits can't be created. many times this is achieved through 3rd. party arbitration via. a labor union.
One thing that should be considered especially in big corporations is the benefit of good wages being paid to a sizable number of the community means that a increased level of money will be
in circulation in the local community which could benefit the corporation via. future sales.
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Dec 11 2014 12:14pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Dec 11 2014 11:17am)
the average worker comes into their workplace with no capital invested and no liability assumed.

people who take millions from their employees put in hundreds of thousands in many cases, and they except millions of dollars of liability

if you want money out you better come in with a capital investment or accept liability of your own work

profit sharing companies, like the company i work for, still dont pay out shit. i get essentially 3/4 an extra paycheck per year. which additionally factors into compensation and raises.

what youre saying has merit, but in more cases than people think a sharp piece of metal in a cupcake or a faulty seatbelt is the only thing stopping alot of employers from going out of business or at least crippling their profit margins for large periods of time


that vulnerability applies to most small businesses, not so with large corporations who can afford to drag on court cases endlessly

hell if you get large enough you can engage in blatantly illegal activities and only pay a small fine when you get caught - hsbc money laundering for terrorists and drug cartels

This post was edited by duffman316 on Dec 11 2014 12:16pm
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Dec 11 2014 12:25pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Dec 11 2014 12:14pm)
that vulnerability applies to most small businesses, not so with large corporations who can afford to drag on court cases endlessly

hell if you get large enough you can engage in blatantly illegal activities and only pay a small fine when you get caught - hsbc money laundering for terrorists and drug cartels


most class action lawsuits where a death isnt involved in the damages get settles out of court, an increased trend in the last few decades because increased media exposure means shutting someone up for 2x the money beats losing your ass in bad press.

seriously go slip on a wet walmart floor somewhere and youll get paid, the drug out cases these days more accurately pertain to patent violations or copyright infringements where any profit you can scrape out of the deal over time helps cover such violations.

not to mention the average joe has to hire a lawyer who scalps the fuck out of them in % of settlements if they dont have upfront money for representation

completely off subject i know just thought it was worth noting.

im a huge fan of profit sharing companies dont get me wrong and even nominal gains of transparent accounting beats not knowing where the profit you worked for is going, like into some CEOs ferrari

sadly the nature of the beast with corporations mean dont expect them to change a corporate model that has worked for them especially in times of post-recession budget balancing because regardless of right/wrong no board of execs is gonna buy in, not just because of the vested interest they have in keeping profits but also because a lowering in profits could lose them their job.

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Dec 11 2014 01:34pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 11 Dec 2014 13:25)
most class action lawsuits where a death isnt involved in the damages get settles out of court, an increased trend in the last few decades because increased media exposure means shutting someone up for 2x the money beats losing your ass in bad press.

seriously go slip on a wet walmart floor somewhere and youll get paid, the drug out cases these days more accurately pertain to patent violations or copyright infringements where any profit you can scrape out of the deal over time helps cover such violations.

not to mention the average joe has to hire a lawyer who scalps the fuck out of them in % of settlements if they dont have upfront money for representation

completely off subject i know just thought it was worth noting.

im a huge fan of profit sharing companies dont get me wrong and even nominal gains of transparent accounting beats not knowing where the profit you worked for is going, like into some CEOs ferrari

sadly the nature of the beast with corporations mean dont expect them to change a corporate model that has worked for them especially in times of post-recession budget balancing because regardless of right/wrong no board of execs is gonna buy in, not just because of the vested interest they have in keeping profits but also because a lowering in profits could lose them their job.




Yeah Brett my pa was a Rail Road man his whole life and when they would have an accident fault was never an issue, they just settled they knew if it went to a trial that they would be seen as the entity that could afford to pay guilty or not. So they would rather have at least a bit of control in the settlement.
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Dec 11 2014 02:17pm
The saying an armed society is a polite one would be particularly fitting here. Do your peaceful protest, however you've no right to violate someone elses persons or property.
A scumbag hijacking a generally peaceful protest as an opportunity to loot assaults a man with a deadly weapon who prevents him from stealing deserves to get shot in self defense. A few more business with a showing of force out front will deter the scavengers.

guess what businesses and homes didnt get looted..







Quote
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/18935-armed-business-owners-scare-away-looters-in-ferguson
The night after Michael Brown was shot by a policeman in Ferguson, Missouri, some business owners realized that their stores — their very livelihoods — were in danger. They also discovered that the police were busy elsewhere, or had been ordered to “stand down” in the wake of the looting that followed the shooting. They had two choices: run away and leave the fate of those businesses to the tender mercies of the looters, or stand and defend them.

For Adam Weinstein, the owner of County Guns in a Florissant strip mall about 10 minutes from where Brown was shot, the decision was easy: “We didn’t want them coming in here and then running around with a bunch of free guns,” he asserted. So he enlisted the assistance of his next-door neighbor, Mike Gutierrez, owner of Riverfront Tattoo, and together with some friends and employees, they stood guard in front of their businesses.

The fact that they were armed — some with handguns, others with semi-automatic rifles — was enough to discourage looters, who had a change of heart and instantly revised their “victim selection process.” Instead they headed across the mall and ransacked a women’s clothing store, Up N Up Fashion. According to news reports, owner Silas Chung was unarmed and unable to defend his store, even though it had been burgled twice before in the nine years he owned it. Chung lamented: “They never break in like this before, so big like this.”

Early on in the melee police were arresting looters, including a miscreant attempting to break into the Shop ‘n Save just down the road. Others were let go, or else were just ignored by the police. A nearby Cricket Wireless store was undefended, and with the police otherwise occupied, it was plundered.

When Target, Dollar General, and Walmart stores were attacked and looted and a QuikTrip convenience store was burned to the ground, this got the attention of the owner of Mally’s Supermarket, who lined up some people to help him defend his store. Once again, the mere presence of half a dozen armed citizens was enough to alter looters’ initial plans, and they left Mally’s alone.

By Saturday there were photographs all over the Internet of business owners dressed for success, armed with all manner of firearms, wearing shirts proclaiming “All Damn Day” and other slogans warning looters to buzz off.

As a local Fox News affiliate was looking into the matter, it learned that due to orders from some police officials, officers had been ordered to “stand down” and let the looters pillage to their hearts’ content. When the affiliate pressed for details, they confirmed that Missouri State Highway Patrol Captain Ron Johnson had issued that order to members under his command who had been enlisted to help out in Ferguson. He said, “We had to evaluate the security of the officers there and also the looters. We just felt it was better to move back.”

Translation for business owners: You’re on your own.

When Missouri Governor Jay Nixon joined with Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson to announce a state of emergency and a curfew on Saturday, reporters pressed them with questions about those business owners and whether their stores would be protected by the police.

Nixon and Ferguson ignored the questions.

This was eerily familiar to the experience of Kee Whan Ha, owner of the Hannam chain stores and a supermarket in the heart of Los Angeles’ Koreatown. He was there during the riots of 1992 and appeared on National Public Radio (NPR) 20 years later to tell what happened then. The dialogue has been modified slightly for clarification:

Ha: April 29 was a Wednesday. All the riots are happening in the South Central area. On Thursday morning, I expect something [is] going to happen in Koreatown, so Koreatown is closed ...

I assembled my people, all the store owners, people who [have] a big rifle or the hunting rifle, everything. So we see that our — next door is [a company] that's American-owned. The [owners] just go home. Then the riot people came inside, and they steal everything. They [pour on] gasoline, then they [set it on] fire, so whole building's on fire.

NPR: Why did you feel you had to defend the store yourself?… Why didn’t you feel the authorities would do their job?

Ha: From Wednesday [on], I don’t see any police patrol car whatsoever. That’s a wide-open area, so it is like the Wild West … We are the only one[s] left, so we have to do our own [defense].

NPR: Well, you just told us that the security guard at your store was killed. This must have been very traumatic for you. Do you mind telling [us] how this happened?

Ha: I was standing a few feet away, so I see that his body has fallen down on the ground, but I was so scared. I — we tried to call the fire department. Please help us. But nobody listen. Then maybe after five or six hours in the evening — [we started calling in] the afternoon, about 1:00 or 2:00 p.m. But actual[ly] — the fire truck [came] about 7:00 o'clock, late evening. So five hours, of course, is sitting between us and them.

NPR: Did you have to fire your weapon?

Ha: Yes. Actually, we are not shooting people. We are shooting ... in the air ... [to] make afraid ... these people coming to us. [We're] not actually targeting people, so...

NPR: Sure. You were trying to create a sort of a protective barrier, and you did succeed in saving your store?

Ha: Yes
.

Thanks to the Second Amendment, armed business owners in Ferguson, Missouri, in the spirit of Kee Whan Ha, are successfully protecting their businesses merely by showing up armed and determined.



Quote
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/11/29/Black-Ferguson-Residents-Armed-With-AR-15s-Save-White-Owned-Business

A group of black Ferguson residents armed with AR-15s and other weapons stood guard around a Conoco station, owned by a white man, and saved it from being burned after looters began wreaking havoc on November 24.
Because of the armed citizens, the Conoco was not only spared, but the owner did not even have to board up the station's windows.
According to Reuters, one of the men guarding the station was 37-year-old "Derrick Jordan--'Stretch,' as his friends call him." He arrived in front of the Conoco, pulled out an AR-15, and stood guard at the store's entrance. He was joined by three other black residents on November 25--all of whom had "pistols tucked into their waistbands" and all of whom took up positions around the Conoco.


This post was edited by Master_Zappy on Dec 11 2014 02:19pm
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Dec 11 2014 06:00pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Dec 11 2014 09:20am)
I, speaking as the former official spokesperson for the 99% am happy that you sir have now taken on that mantel, I hadn't even realized my own materialism until I read your post.
Now I find myself with the overwhelming desire to go sit on Santa's lap with a really big list of all the cool stuff I don't have. So toodles and thanks again!!


The average citizen of a Western state is a materialist. This is fact. Why do you work? To provide for your family. What do you pursue to provide for your family? Material wealth. Beyond certain spiritual or artistic pursuits where money and accumulation of it are not relevant, your average person lives to accumulate material wealth.

Quote (Santara @ Dec 11 2014 09:55am)
Most people are driven by rational self-interest. That may coincide with a drive for wealth, but that doesn't say the same thing. You're calling protesters irrational hypocrites when they are in fact quite rational.


They are irrational hypocrites. If they thought critically about why the live life, they would come to the conclusion that they want the wealth the 1% have and if they had it they would fight to keep it.

Quote (Bazi @ Dec 11 2014 10:36am)
Maybe some of the protesters are there because of material jealousy.

However as you said it is the average person who is in the pursuit of material wealth...and the average person does not engage in such protests

So it very well may be that these protesters are not there jealous of those who have acquired material wealth, but there for alternate non material reasons


The average person doesn't protest not because they have nothing to complain about, but because they cannot be bothered to do so. Perhaps because they believe it will have no effect, or simply because they're lazy. Who knows, but give a protestor of the 1% wealth a couple million dollars and see if they come out to protest the next time. These people aren't such moral superiors with strong convictions that they would continue to do what they do.

Quote (Master_Zappy @ Dec 11 2014 03:17pm)
The saying an armed society is a polite one would be particularly fitting here. Do your peaceful protest, however you've no right to violate someone elses persons or property.
  A scumbag hijacking a generally peaceful protest as an opportunity to loot assaults a man with a deadly weapon who prevents him from stealing deserves to get shot in self defense. A few more business with a showing of force out front will deter the scavengers.

guess what businesses and homes didnt get looted..

https://thebangswitch.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/58852252.jpg
http://bearingarms.com/uploads/2014/11/22.jpg

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/FergCartoon.JPG


Gun culture is responsible for many negative things in American society. A rare and isolated example does not prove anything. Vigilantism and citizen militia's are a perversion of the law.
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Dec 11 2014 11:20pm
Quote (Caedus @ Dec 10 2014 10:03pm)
It wasn't assumption. It's fact.



how can a metaphor become a fact? depending what you mean by controlling the masses. The way you treat the masses can destroy a nation. Romes greatest period and golden age was the pursuit and laws against total greed and immorality. When the plebs were displaced and pushed out by the rich this had a terrible generational effect on the military strength of the nation not to mention other detrimental effects.

Perhaps its not the total un accountability, greed and lies to masses but a balance between the two. I balance America holds today which is possibly why we are this way yet at the same time this country is so young who knows.

This post was edited by Historic on Dec 11 2014 11:27pm
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