Quote (thesnipa @ 12 Dec 2014 17:58)

wouldnt an ends-means argument be applicable where someone justifies information at the costs of the aggregate torture without taking into account the individual person being tortured.

ex: torturing 30 people to get credible information from 20 of them

this takes into account your correct statement that the torturers didnt know individuals had information but the correctly assumed the larger group of suspected terrorists as a whole had information.

if you dig a mine you dont expect to get to the payload instantly. you dig a shaft and based on your findings redirect or create new shafts.

Disclaimer: im not saying that i personally agree with this philosophy NOR that the ends justified the means in this specific case. Just arguing for the philosophy of applying such a strategy could produce results and really the information gained through torutre could be the only factor that decides where people fall on the ends-means justification line. If we would have gotten massive amounts of info but only 50% of the tortured subjects had that info would people be as upset?

Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Dec 13 2014 02:02pm)

This is hand grenade  reasoning 

This kind of means are never justified by  the ends, I would always rather see two guilty men set free than one innocent man jailed.

Quote (IceMage @ Dec 13 2014 02:08pm)

That's not the moral dilemma though.  The situation is we can use harsh methods to extract intelligence from known Al Qaeda/Taliban/ISIS members, and use that information to help us win the war on terror.

The terrorists operate at the bottom rung of morality.  They are savages who don't follow any real guidelines for what is moral in war.  They will do anything to further their cause.  Stepping down on the holier-than-thou scale to help us in our war is completely reasonable.

Quote (IceMage @ 13 Dec 2014 14:08)

That's not the moral dilemma though.  The situation is we can use harsh methods to extract intelligence from known Al Qaeda/Taliban/ISIS members, and use that information to help us win the war on terror.

The terrorists operate at the bottom rung of morality.  They are savages who don't follow any real guidelines for what is moral in war.  They will do anything to further their cause.  Stepping down on the holier-than-thou scale to help us in our war is completely reasonable.

Quote (IceMage @ Dec 13 2014 10:08pm)

The terrorists operate at the bottom rung of morality.  They are savages who don't follow any real guidelines for what is moral in war