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Oct 11 2014 06:31pm
Quote (TCassa89 @ Oct 11 2014 04:15pm)
we've killed over 100,000 people in our war on terror, and on top of that terrorism has multiplied as a result (which is again why ISIS is around to begin with)


if the war on terror were not a failure, then we wouldn't be fighting it anymore



Again, our actions have not reduced these acts of terrorism in any sense, they have only multiplied them. Every country we have carried military actions in since the war on terror began has experienced an INCREASE in terrorism

FACT: we killed more civilians in our effort to overthrow the Iraqi government than ISIS has in their effort to overthrow the Iraqi government


No, we haven't KILLED 100k people. We may be indirectly responsible by creating power vacuums, but we never actually killed 100,000 people.

I can tell that you're one who gives up easily. The War on Terror is going to take DECADES to complete. We've done a great job preventing terrorism in America and now the next step is to eliminate it in other reasons by promoting secular democracies.
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Oct 11 2014 07:33pm
Quote (thundercock @ Oct 11 2014 05:31pm)
No, we haven't KILLED 100k people. We may be indirectly responsible by creating power vacuums, but we never actually killed 100,000 people.

I can tell that you're one who gives up easily. The War on Terror is going to take DECADES to complete. We've done a great job preventing terrorism in America and now the next step is to eliminate it in other reasons by promoting secular democracies.



We have indeed killed over 100,000 people, in total more than 200,000 have died from the war on terror, but regardless of how you try to spin it.. it has been 13 years and terrorism has not gone down, it has multiplied.

If we chose to maintain the war that long, the next 13 years wouldn't be any different from the first 13 years. Extending the war for decades to come will only multiply terrorism for decades to come

This post was edited by TCassa89 on Oct 11 2014 07:37pm
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Oct 11 2014 07:59pm
Quote (TCassa89 @ Oct 11 2014 05:33pm)
We have indeed killed over 100,000 people, in total more than 200,000 have died from the war on terror, but regardless of how you try to spin it.. it has been 13 years and terrorism has not gone down, it has multiplied.

If we chose to maintain the war that long, the next 13 years wouldn't be any different from the first 13 years. Extending the war for decades to come will only multiply terrorism for decades to come


Nah, that's incorrect. Islamic terrorism stems from Muslimism, instability, and poverty. Helping countries develop secular democracies will eliminate the first two and likely the third.

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

If you look at "US-Led coalition including iraq state forces" you'll see that the total number is WELL below 20K.

http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians
I'm not even going to bother splitting up the blame on Afghanistan since it's only 21K civilians.

There are other countries involved (Yemen etc.) but those numbers should all be much smaller than Iraq.

This is a long term effort and we constantly have to be evaluating cost/benefit to see what works and what doesn't. Cultural change takes DECADES. Hell, we're still feeling the effects of WW2 today. I'm not saying you shouldn't be critical, I'm simply saying that you need to be patient.
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Oct 11 2014 08:07pm
Quote (thundercock @ Oct 12 2014 04:59am)
Nah, that's incorrect. Islamic terrorism stems from Muslimism, instability, and poverty. Helping countries develop secular democracies will eliminate the first two and likely the third.

i agree, but i think that it's important to notice that secular democracies don't grow out of nothing, but out of stable grounds for them. a stable basis for a secular, democratic and a righteous way of life can only spring out of a righteous basis for it to grow out of.
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Oct 11 2014 09:14pm
Quote (thundercock @ Oct 11 2014 06:59pm)
Nah, that's incorrect. Islamic terrorism stems from Muslimism, instability, and poverty. Helping countries develop secular democracies will eliminate the first two and likely the third.

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

If you look at "US-Led coalition including iraq state forces" you'll see that the total number is WELL below 20K.

http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians
I'm not even going to bother splitting up the blame on Afghanistan since it's only 21K civilians.

There are other countries involved (Yemen etc.) but those numbers should all be much smaller than Iraq.

This is a long term effort and we constantly have to be evaluating cost/benefit to see what works and what doesn't. Cultural change takes DECADES. Hell, we're still feeling the effects of WW2 today. I'm not saying you shouldn't be critical, I'm simply saying that you need to be patient.



now you're segregating the numbers, granted civilians make up over 50% of the casualties from the war on terror, but there are still militants killed who otherwise would not have been militants if not for our war over there. Not to mention the fact that many civilians killed are never recognized as civilians due to being unidentifiable from the strikes (some estimates count as many as 300,000)

This post was edited by TCassa89 on Oct 11 2014 09:18pm
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Oct 12 2014 01:39am
Quote (thundercock @ Oct 11 2014 07:59pm)
Nah, that's incorrect. Islamic terrorism stems from Muslimism, instability, and poverty. Helping countries develop secular democracies will eliminate the first two and likely the third.

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

If you look at "US-Led coalition including iraq state forces" you'll see that the total number is WELL below 20K.

http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians
I'm not even going to bother splitting up the blame on Afghanistan since it's only 21K civilians.

There are other countries involved (Yemen etc.) but those numbers should all be much smaller than Iraq.

This is a long term effort and we constantly have to be evaluating cost/benefit to see what works and what doesn't. Cultural change takes DECADES. Hell, we're still feeling the effects of WW2 today. I'm not saying you shouldn't be critical, I'm simply saying that you need to be patient.


I agree, but for a very long time a stable middle east hasn't been in our best interests. We tend to overthrow secular governments in favor of the religious radicals who cooperate.
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Oct 12 2014 07:12am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 12 2014 02:39am)
I agree, but for a very long time a stable middle east hasn't been in our best interests.  We tend to overthrow secular governments in favor of the religious radicals who cooperate.


the american foreign policy is partly responsible for the deaths of a very large number of people outside the war on terror, probably a lot more than 200k at that ~ the american government (european ones too for that matter) militarily supported and supplied arms to countries with brutal dictatorships and severe human rights issues which enables them to kill an untold number of civilians of various ethnicities ~ this is why a lot of people hate americans, particularly when they toot their self proclaimed moral highground

if a nuke were to hit washington tomorrow you'd have children dancing in celebration in the streets of palestine
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Oct 12 2014 07:57am
Quote (thundercock @ 12 Oct 2014 00:31)
No, we haven't KILLED 100k people. We may be indirectly responsible by creating power vacuums, but we never actually killed 100,000 people.

I can tell that you're one who gives up easily. The War on Terror is going to take DECADES to complete. We've done a great job preventing terrorism in America and now the next step is to eliminate it in other reasons by promoting secular democracies.


Iraq Body Count project documented 110,937–121,227 civilian deaths from violence from March 2003 to December 2012.

Should also check this - http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwherold/dossier

Over 100k is a conservative estimate of civilian casualties caused by the global 'War on Terror'.

This post was edited by Scaly on Oct 12 2014 08:00am
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Oct 12 2014 12:10pm
If when we discovered that there were no wmd's( months before the first war) and recognized that the terrorists were a cell of bad men and not a country.
and if had spent just a small fraction of the money that we have spent on waging war in the middle east, in humanitarian efforts like food, sustainable clean water systems,
medicines and other health aids. If we could have added that stability to the civilians lives it would be much harder for a radical or 2 to get a lot of support.
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