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Apr 9 2014 12:42pm
Quote (Gastly @ Apr 9 2014 01:41pm)
are you referring to the popularised misunderstanding of Al-Ghazali?
because, eh, not really


would like to hear koen's take on this as our resident muslim poster :o
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Apr 9 2014 12:44pm
Quote (Gastly @ Apr 9 2014 08:41pm)
are you referring to the popularised misunderstanding of Al-Ghazali?
because, eh, not really


what is it that happened then? he increased the threshold for questioning things

perhaps its not the only reason but its a significant factor
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Apr 9 2014 12:52pm
....evolution should not be taught to 9 year old children , they can not handle the abstract thought processes required to understand it .
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Apr 9 2014 01:01pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Apr 9 2014 09:42pm)
would like to hear koen's take on this as our resident muslim poster :o

he'll probably claim that we'd be colonising other planets if we all just followed his version of the shariah :P

Quote (Neptunus @ Apr 9 2014 09:44pm)
what is it that happened then? he increased the threshold for questioning things

perhaps its not the only reason but its a significant factor

he was massively influential on Islamic thought, yes - and he definitely was a factor in the decline of the Mu'tazilla school. however - to call him anti-science or anti-rationalist is a profound misunderstanding of his works.
he in fact praised scientific endeavour - especially when it comes to medicine and biology, and did indeed proclaim them as one of the "pillars of faith" (fard). in Islamic legal terms, the term fard carries a huge amount of importance - daily prayers etc. are fard as well.
this misunderstanding of Al-Ghazali is often linked with the belief that the Islamic world/The Arab world/The Middle East just suddenly lost its' "technological edge" by 1250 - which is just blatantly false
btw: what he in fact did condemn as pagan and harmful was... astrology :D

history can't really just be reduced into a chart or simplified like that at all. there were many events around many parts of the globe (the Mongol conquests, the reconquista etc. etc.) that together meant that the the mid-Eastern/Arab sphere slowly declined in power.

and the fact that his school of Ashari and his legal school of Sharifi haven't really been hot for ages.
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Apr 9 2014 01:01pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Apr 9 2014 02:09pm)
isn't that trickled down nonsense widely accepted as being the nonsense it always was now?


Yes. But there are still a lot of reflexively Republican areas, so it's going to take another generation or so for a lot of them to stop voting Republican even though they've already determined that, on the issues, they're at odds with the people they're still voting for.
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Apr 9 2014 01:12pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Apr 9 2014 01:09pm)
isn't that trickled down nonsense widely accepted as being the nonsense it always was now?


They have a right to faith-based economics.
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Apr 9 2014 01:28pm
Quote (Skinned @ Apr 9 2014 09:33am)
Just a reminder to everyone who we're dealing with here:

http://iacknowledge.net/republican-says-hes-running-for-congress-because-evolution-made-his-daughter-cry/

Republican Says He’s Running for Congress Because Evolution Made His Daughter Cry



Sorry, but if somebody in the Democratic party came out and said anything this stupid it would be met with mass derision by the party.

What is so wrong with the GOP that this guy is an acceptable candidate?

How can so many people take them seriously when they keep putting clowns like this up to represent their party?

And Minnesota?  They have Michelle Bachmann and this guy?  WTF Santara, explain your state!


reality makes people cry, not just evolution. Living in a fantasy world is just much more satisfying for most people it would seem.
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Apr 9 2014 01:30pm
Quote (Skinned @ Apr 9 2014 01:39pm)
I dunno, the GOP seems to think austerity is a successful policy when it causes more problems when it is implemented.

The new Ryan budget raises taxes on middle class families by over $2k a year while making massive tax cuts to the top 1%.  I think that is a massive failure, as it stinks of Reaganomics and trickle-down drivel that only works in the minds of the uberwealthy and those who serve them.  It has cuts to education, medical research, public works, job training, food stamps, will turn medicare into a voucher program, and kill millions of people off their current insurance policies.

It is a massive failure on an economic and political front.


The last Republican president spear-headed relief spending and QE, stop excusing Democratic incompetence with some boogeyman about how Republicans are going to ignore the advice of economists. That's the Democratic play book.

The left needs to understand that Medicare is insolvent and that salvaging it isn't possible. They need to admit that SS benefits need to be reduced and the age req boosted by 2-3 years.

They need to stop advocating the same left populism that has categorically failed Venezuela, Argentina, Bolivia, and Brazil.


They need to admit that their policies towards African-Americans has left them as impoverished as ever and they need to stop scape-goating the rich.

They need to meaningfully combat the decline in American education and withdraw support from public unions interested only in enriching themselves at the expense of society as they fight to perpetuate the status quo.

Once the Democratic Party stops being an anti-intellectual populist movement drawing support from the uninformed poor we can work to fix health-care and realize environmental sustainability.
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Apr 9 2014 01:32pm
Quote (Gastly @ Apr 9 2014 09:01pm)
he'll probably claim that we'd be colonising other planets if we all just followed his version of the shariah :P


he was massively influential on Islamic thought, yes - and he definitely was a factor in the decline of the Mu'tazilla school. however - to call him anti-science or anti-rationalist is a profound misunderstanding of his works.
he in fact praised scientific endeavour - especially when it comes to medicine and biology, and did indeed proclaim them as one of the "pillars of faith" (fard). in Islamic legal terms, the term fard carries a huge amount of importance - daily prayers etc. are fard as well.
this misunderstanding of Al-Ghazali is often linked with the belief that the Islamic world/The Arab world/The Middle East just suddenly lost its' "technological edge" by 1250 - which is just blatantly false
btw: what he in fact did condemn as pagan and harmful was... astrology :D

history can't really just be reduced into a chart or simplified like that at all. there were many events around many parts of the globe (the Mongol conquests, the reconquista etc. etc.) that together meant that the the mid-Eastern/Arab sphere slowly declined in power.

and the fact that his school of Ashari and his legal school of Sharifi haven't really been hot for ages.


i dont think muslims ever were anti-science except for the theory of evolution in modern days, but Al-Ghazali did create a philosophical atmosphere that isnt exactly the most encouraging in terms of engaging in scientific pursuits. He effectively narrowed down what Muslims are "allowed" to inquire on the basis of respecting the "divine" order of things, which is easily intepreted in an anti-intellectual manner.

he placed religion before empirics and philosophy, which is a problem in itself due to interpretational differences in religion. This preference to spirituality is still strongly evident in the Muslim world.

id like to also point out that medicine and biology are susceptible to teleological thinking, which goes nicely hand in hand with the idea of controlled maintenance of life.

This post was edited by Neptunus on Apr 9 2014 01:35pm
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Apr 9 2014 01:37pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Apr 9 2014 01:09pm)
isn't that trickled down nonsense widely accepted as being the nonsense it always was now?


If you think standards of living haven't dramatically improved since Carter you aren't capable of engaging coherently in this discussion.
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