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AEtheric
#121 May 16 2012 01:09pm
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Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 01:03pm)
A few times in this thread I made a point I want to develop. I would appreciate it greatly if you all could help me.

(I want to make something clear, I'm a secularist and a skeptic so the things I'm about to say do not reflect my beliefs.)

I wonder if an appeal to the fanatics spiritual side would loosen religions hold on their mind. Like I said a few times before in this thread, I doubt an unimaginably intelligent being would construct such a cut and dry and simplistic test for humanity. There is only one answer, it's in this book. Maybe if we could present the argument that God is a super-being with an elevated consciousness, and the key to his kingdom could never be ignorance, but instead enlightenment. Maybe with an incredibly well timed assertion that the bible wasn't created by god, it was created by... I don't know.. the super devil? Whatever..

The point of the book would be to force man to ignore the clues god left for us, to never let us reach the potential he created. The book is here to prepare us for an afterlife of obedience and worship. A loving god wouldn't demand ignorance, and worship from his children. I also doubt God would need to threaten us to get its way.

Sorry.. WAY out there haha.


TrouNce
#122 May 16 2012 01:09pm
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Quote (AiNedeSpelCzech @ May 16 2012 06:46pm)
The idea that 120M people in America are as fanatical as the people in Jesus Camp is fucking laughably stupid.


120 million people rejecting evolution, 120 million people believing the earth is less than 10,000 years old, 120 million evangelicals. When did I claim they were all equally fanatical???

I said 120,000,000 Potential army members, people fanatically and deliberately ignorant, ready to believe appeals from the bible.

Some people just can't argue properly..

This post was edited by TrouNce on May 16 2012 01:11pm
AEtheric
#123 May 16 2012 01:10pm
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Quote (Derkaderk @ May 16 2012 01:07pm)
Honestly I'd push a button to implode the earth just to see what would happen


I guess it would be quite tempting to push a button. A button seems harmless enough.
taekvideo
#124 May 16 2012 02:54pm
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Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 01:23pm)
What? At which point in constructing this argument did you decide it was logical? Your Christian extremists actually exist with an alarming population. 40% of Americans in this country believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. There are approximately 120,000,000 people in the united states who are evangelical extremists, that's hardly a fringe movement. It's fallacious to assert being afraid of that woman and her potential 120,000,000 man army is like thinking 40% of Americans are Olympic class swimmers.


Being a young earth creationist doesn't make someone an "extremist". That belief in itself doesn't present a danger to others nor does it necessitate a preclusion of science in general.
In fact, if 40% of people believe something, then it's by definition not "extremist". Abusing the word "extremist" like that is little more than fear-mongering.
The Christian beliefs teach good morals, living peacefully, and doing good to your fellow man... not forming an army to do bad things o.O
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/extremist%5Badjective%5D
Quote
being very far from the center of public opinion <their extremist views on religious issues set them apart from the rest of the community>



Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 01:23pm)
Medicine is a field of science that has habitually proven itself accurate.


Hardly. Medical/health theories are constantly overturned as new discoveries are made (and plenty of former medical "truths" have actually caused damage).
New drugs are frequently released after being tested and certified, and later discovered to have unpredicted serious side effect(s) that require them to be pulled from the market.
Medicine is at least as much trial-and-error as any other field of science.

Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 01:23pm)
@The bold, How dangerous is a nuke on an unpopulated planet? Alone the advanced weapon is harmless, so it's not weapons we should fear, it's the ignorance to use them.


Nukes are very dangerous... especially in this unstable world where governments that control them can potentially collapse (Soviet Union?) and they can fall in the hands of dangerous individuals.
And not just nukes... the latest (and upcoming) developments in biological warfare have the potential to be far more devastating.
In a way I agree with you... advanced science/technology isn't inherently harmful, but it is dangerous as it can give [evil/crazy/fanatical] people the ability to do far more damage than they otherwise could.
The social and political state of our world is far too unstable to handle our current rate of technological advancement.
There's good reason to believe that human civilization won't survive to see the 22nd century if current trends continue.

Quote (Derkaderk @ May 16 2012 01:54pm)
Are you arguing, therefore, that science is dangerous? If so, how?

All this "weapons make it easier to kill people" talk has nothing to do with how science is dangerous. Are you going to argue that mathematics is dangerous because engineering depends on mathematics and guns depend on engineering?


It's all part of the same thing. Understanding the nature of the universe and how things work... inevitably leads to the ability for one person to have a much bigger impact, whether benevolent or destructive.

Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 02:03pm)
Like I said a few times before in this thread, I doubt an unimaginably intelligent being would construct such a cut and dry and simplistic test for humanity. There is only one answer, it's in this book. Maybe if we could present the argument that God is a super-being with an elevated consciousness, and the key to his kingdom could never be ignorance, but instead enlightenment.


I agree with this part of what you're saying. It's one big problem I have with religion (and why I consider myself to be a servant of God and no longer subscribe to any particular religion).
Religions are a fabrication of man, not God, and serve largely to separate people based on differences in language/tradition/dogma.
I hardly think He would want us to waste our time squabbling amongst ourselves over such things, and especially not waging war (or flying airplanes into buildings...).
Nor is it sensible to say that the saving grace of the Lord would not extend to someone due merely to (presumed) factual errors in what they believe.

I disagree with your view on worship though.
Anyone who thinks they're born free in this world is deluding themselves.
From the moment we enter this world we're slaves to our own bodies, doomed to spend our lives in an empty pursuit of things we like while attempting to avoid things we dislike, never to be fully satisfied.
One cannot make a truly free choice until they abandon their own cravings and aversions.
I know that I am not a good person. The evil in my mind and heart has disturbed me greatly. But despite this, I have not been denied redemption.
Service to the Lord is not how you portray it to be.
For the will of the Lord to be my own is the enlightenment that I seek. It is freedom from evil and the conditioning of material existence.
AiNedeSpelCzech
#125 May 16 2012 02:56pm
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Quote (TrouNce @ 16 May 2012 14:09)
120 million people rejecting evolution, 120 million people believing the earth is less than 10,000 years old, 120 million evangelicals. When did I claim they were all equally fanatical???

I said 120,000,000 Potential army members, people fanatically and deliberately ignorant, ready to believe appeals from the bible.

Some people just can't argue properly..


So you think that woman could lead a potential 120M person army, but not that they're fanatical.

You're right, some people are truly terrible at arguing. :(
TrouNce
#126 May 16 2012 03:43pm
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Quote (taekvideo @ May 16 2012 08:54pm)
Being a young earth creationist doesn't make someone an "extremist".  That belief in itself doesn't present a danger to others nor does it necessitate a preclusion of science in general.
In fact, if 40% of people believe something, then it's by definition not "extremist".  Abusing the word "extremist" like that is little more than fear-mongering.
The Christian beliefs teach good morals, living peacefully, and doing good to your fellow man... not forming an army to do bad things o.O
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/extremist%5Badjective%5D


I'm fear mongering? I never misused the word extremist. I honestly believe young earth creationists advocate extreme doctrines and practices. I'm assuming the majority of American's believe the earth is round, and the opposite or radical view would be it's flat.

The christian doctrine is different depending on who you talk too, there are many who teach it peacefully but that doesn't excuse those who don't. I'm not trying to claim there is an enemy in our midst, however there are few who use this dogma to cause turmoil. I dislike fundamentalism, it seems dangerous and I really want to advocate positive discussion. Try to lower the number of fundamentalists with reason.


Quote (taekvideo @ May 16 2012 08:54pm)
Hardly.  Medical/health theories are constantly overturned as new discoveries are made (and plenty of former medical "truths" have actually caused damage).
New drugs are frequently released after being tested and certified, and later discovered to have unpredicted serious side effect(s) that require them to be pulled from the market.
Medicine is at least as much trial-and-error as any other field of science.


Appendicitis is a good example of how medical science can be vindicated. It's apparent untreated inflammation of the appendix can be fatal. The appendix is a vestigial structure, which we have determined through scientific analysis. The only negative outcomes of an appendectomy are, error in medical practice, bad diagnostics.

Quote (taekvideo @ May 16 2012 08:54pm)
Nukes are very dangerous... especially in this unstable world where governments that control them can potentially collapse (Soviet Union?) and they can fall in the hands of dangerous individuals.
And not just nukes... the latest (and upcoming) developments in biological warfare have the potential to be far more devastating.
In a way I agree with you... advanced science/technology isn't inherently harmful, but it is dangerous as it can give [evil/crazy/fanatical] people the ability to do far more damage than they otherwise could.
The social and political state of our world is far too unstable to handle our current rate of technological advancement.
There's good reason to believe that human civilization won't survive to see the 22nd century if current trends continue.


Is this considered fear mongering? I would hope not, considering the effort you applied to prove I was fear mongering. If it were, it would make you seem hypocritical. :(




Quote (AiNedeSpelCzech @ May 16 2012 08:56pm)
So you think that woman could lead a potential 120M person army, but not that they're fanatical.

You're right, some people are truly terrible at arguing.  :(


You can either continue attacking the straw man you've created, or you try to understand my position. I think it's fair to say if that woman (and the others like her) can continue indoctrinating children with her extremist ideals, one day those children will continue the trend. If 120,000,000 people have the capacity to ignore logic, scientific consensus, and common sense it's fair to say there is a potential 120,000,000 man army sleeping in this country.

Edit: Not a war of death ofc. A war on Reason. Sorry :D

This post was edited by TrouNce on May 16 2012 03:46pm
taekvideo
#127 May 16 2012 04:09pm
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Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 04:43pm)
I'm fear mongering?  I never misused the word extremist. I honestly believe young earth creationists advocate extreme doctrines and practices. I'm assuming the majority of American's believe the earth is round, and the opposite or radical view would be it's flat.

The christian doctrine is different depending on who you talk too, there are many who teach it peacefully but that doesn't excuse those who don't. I'm not trying to claim there is an enemy in our midst, however there are few who use this dogma to cause turmoil. I dislike fundamentalism, it seems dangerous and I really want to advocate positive discussion. Try to lower the number of fundamentalists with reason.


Ahh I see. Not all young earth creationists are fundamentalists though (or believe that the earth is flat :rolleyes: )
Dogma can be dangerous I agree (eg Al-Qaeda, crusades, ...).
The problem with what you're saying though, it sounds like "40% of americans are young earth creationists, therefore 40% of americans are fundamentalists, therefore 40% of americans are extremists ready and willing to form an army to oppress and terrorize the rest of us"... it just doesn't logically follow from one claim to the next.

The real danger (I agree somewhat with your fears) are people who:
1) Believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God
2) Don't read the Bible themselves, but instead get told what's in it and what it means by other people.


Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 04:43pm)
Is this considered fear mongering? I would hope not, considering the effort you applied to prove I was fear mongering. If it were, it would make you seem hypocritical. :(


LOL nah man, just speculating. I'm more optimistic that I may seem based only on that ;)
I'm actually writing a scifi/fantasty series which explores (among many things) the potential dangers/benefits/morality of science/technology.


Quote (TrouNce @ May 16 2012 04:43pm)
You can either continue attacking the straw man you've created, or you try to understand my position. I think it's fair to say if that woman (and the others like her) can continue indoctrinating children with her extremist ideals, one day those children will continue the trend. If 120,000,000 people have the capacity to ignore logic, scientific consensus, and common sense it's fair to say there is a potential 120,000,000 man army sleeping in this country.


Spel likes to poke people.
I like him though.. only because he helped me realize something completely obvious that I sort of already knew but never really took to heart... when he poked me once.
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