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Oct 16 2009 07:15pm
This is mostly written for myself as a sort of information dump of all the things I've been working on for a while now. It's mostly so I can link it from my profile but figured I might share it with you guys in case anyone cares.

Dexterity, strenght and how they work together.

Opening thoughts on Str/Dex ratios

Ok this is probably the section where theres the most deductions and most amount of variability of different opinions. However, I spent an absurd amount of time trying to understand and figure out Str/Dex ratios and this is what I've found out. I'll also include some basic tree graphic type charts to provide guidance on how to stat your character if
you decide to follow my point of view.

1- There is no magic number of dexterity

This is one of the first assumptions I made while starting to get interested in the workings of Str and Dex. The reasonings behind this are quite simple. Your total damage comes from both Str/Dex at a certain ratio. The two numbers almost certainly have some type of multiplicative values however how they vary with each other is unknown. The important thing to know though is that they do vary with each other and thats why a 120 dex - 70 str won't work as well as a 120 str - 70 dex ratio. Despite both builds having the same amount of stats invested in melee oriented stats when multiplied together the damage output will generally be smaller.

2- Your dexterity should not depend on your weapon type

Ok this one is a bit more complicated and the reasoning behind it is mainly mathematic. This said, statements such as more dex for swords are completely irrelevant. If anything axes would be slightly more beneficed from dexterity bonuses. Basically, the people saying this generally say stuff like, yeah but the higher end values get bigger crits so dexterity is more important. However this is also true for lower end values and when you look at the averages of all the weapons you see that they deal the same average damage so your crits will be boosted, in average, by the same amount of damage. It's important to note that because low end hits on a sword won't get entirely negated by monsters defense (can't have negative values, it stops at 0) swords will deal a higher average damage in theory. This said, critical strikes ignore defense so that point doesn't make any sense on dexterity and critical strikes when it comes to weapon choices.

The biggest part of the logic behind this can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31115563&f=272

3- Catacombs = Less dexterity, Arena = more dexterity

The logic behind this one is slightly more complicated yet still very approachable. Basically the argument goes as follow. Dexterity ignores monsters defense. Arena monsters have higher average defense then catacomb monsters. Therefore dexterity should be more efficient in arena then in catacombs. However just for the sake of being thorough it's important to keep into consideration two things. 1- The critical strike multiplier is also affected by the amount of monsters dexterity compared to your own dexterity. This would then mean critical strikes would potentially do more damage on average in catacombs then in the arena. However, we would need to evaluate whether the added bonuses from higher critical strikes outweigh, equal, or under weigh the bonuses from the totaled damage potentially lost due to the monsters defense. Due to lack of information we are currently unable to calculate this. I do believe though that the bonuses are highly under weighed. Still, this point is debatable.

More information on this can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31419519&f=272

4- Build your character with a purpose, the type of armor you wear should affect your str/dex ratio (more true in catacombs).

Almost everyone I've talked to strongly disagrees with this point however here goes my reasoning. For the best possibly efficiency you should always look to maximize your characters positive points while not concentrating on it's negative points. Your character should have a purpose. As we all know Dexterity has offensive as well as defensive properties. Therefore if you are getting attacked less often, you have less chances of getting CS'd so you will get less of a damage reduction bonus from dexterity. Lets say your using a robe oriented melee character in catacombs. You will be sitting in the back row getting hit less often, the defensive bonuses from dexterity are being minimized. If you were using a heavy armor ( Enhanced Effect armor even) character sitting in the front row and tanking the damage your primary role would be to absorb the damage and not necessarily dish out the heavy damage. The robed characters could take care of that. It has also been shown that generally, point for point, str will yield a stronger damage output then dexterity. There are some exceptions to this that I'll talk about later.

More information on this can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31286038&f=272 / http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31446921&f=272 / http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31419519&f=272

5- The CS multiplier is calculated from your dexterity compared to the monsters dexterity, not the difference in dexterity between the two.

This point I personally tested with the help of tondor. Basically what this means is that the CS multiplier will not be the same if you have 90 dexterity with a 20 dexterity difference of the monster then if you have 120 dexterity with a 20 dexterity difference of the monster. This information isn't extremely useful, however it did prevent us from calculating experimental values (it would still have been possible but would have required easily 20-30x more work so I decided to not continue the testing). Just some fun information to note I guess.

6- Maximize the later levels (55-71)

Pretty straightforward to have the fastest climbs you want to maximize the speed of the parts that are the slowest, the limiting factor. In this case it's the later levels. Thats why I believe your build should be oriented to excel at levels 55-71. I will be using level 65 as my target (10 initial stats + 65 additional stats + x amount of stats from gear = 75 stats + x amount from gear)

7- relation vit vs str/dex

When you first start your melee character you are confronted with a dilemma. Do you want your first 10 stats points to go into str/dex or into vitality. I have personally come to enjoy putting the first 10 stat points of the character into vitality. The reason why this question is only important to us in the beginning is that you get +1 life per level per hard point of vitality invested and a +2 life for every hard point in vitality invested (only once). This means that adding points into vitality will be the most cost effective at the beginning of your climb. Most people decide to not put points into vitality because most melee characters already have a high starting amount of vitality and they find it unnecessary to add any more. It's more valuable to them to invest in a stat that will increase their damage output, increasing their killing speed. However, investing the first 10 stat points into vitality will give you a 22% increase if life compared to only about 5% increase in damage. The 5% increase in damage depends on how much str/dex you get from your gear. The higher the amount the lower the damage % increase you get. You have to ask yourself the question, is 5% more damage > 22% more life? I have found that yes it is, especially that I play HC the extra vitality always enables me to get at least 1 kill per regen. If your gear isn't top of the end and you are having trouble killing monsters in arena at higher levels, I recommend you try putting first 10 points into vitality. Not anymore then 10 though.

It's also important to note that since you will have higher life, your regens will be longer and your kills will be slower, only slightly slower but still. As far as getting vitality as a main stat on a charm/armor I think it's a horrible idea. A point of vitality adds less then 1EE% to your armor. It would be much more cost effective to simply get EE on your .armor or even an offensive stat instead of vitality. I would not reccomend this in any way and can't see any scenarios where it would be more beneficial then str/ee/dex.

8- rare scenarios where pure dex is better

In the odd scenario that your weapons damage is being mostly absorbed by the monsters defense, it would be better to go all dexterity. This is because dexterity ignores defense and it would deal more damage. This is probably why some people report to be having more success with very high dex builds then very str. Still I remain skeptical of exactly how useful this is as even a basic tier level weapon with no Enhanced Effect should deal enough damage to outweigh this effect if you invested a decent amount of stat points into str, or at least thats what I believe. Feel free to prove me wrong :)

9- Enhanced Effect armors vs str/dex armors

I believe that at lower budget levels Enhanced Effect armors will work better then str/dex armors as far as killing in arena goes. This is mainly because there is a vey present effect of overkill that can be achieved with Enhanced Effect armors. If you are using a plate mail I wouldn't recommend getting more then 140 EE and no more then 110 EE on a chain mail tier 14. This is because monsters will deal you damage in three ways. Magical, physical, CS. Your EE armor will only reduce the physical damage you eat and at those levels of EE you can already nullify almost all of that damage. Getting much more of that EE would simply be an overkill and would be wasted. This is purely my guess but I would have to guess that 140 EE plate = 35-40 str plate as far as killing efficiency goes. If your able to purchase plates with more then 40 str I think you'll get faster levels then going to EE route. The opposite is also true.

Again, it's important to keep into consideration that if your getting EE as a stat on your armor if means your going to be killing slower and it might translate into slower levels. It can very well be faster to have a slightly lower MCC but you are killing the monsters and regening faster then using the Enhanced effect route. If your going to choose to go catacombs both options are viable and very useful.

10- A tank in catacombs

This is slightly off topic but I fits nicely in this section I think. If ever you decide that you want to make a pure tank in catacombs wearing an EE armor and having high dexterity will not be enough. You will also need to get intelligence. For your tank to be the best it can be you'll need high EE, dex and int (about 100 in each should do). If you do get this though you'll quickly realize that you have a low amount of points left to distribute into str and it might be a better option to be a healer instead of a damage dealer. HM on weapon, EE on armor, HM on charm, EE on acc.charm. I haven't personally tested this though. Your character would be extremely good at tanking hits, allowing your catacomb group to last longer. However you will be unable to solo and you won't have the insane high heals of a normal healer.

Ok now I'm apply the following information and logic to give what I believe would be good guidelines to start your melee journey. However, let me strongly emphasize that these should not be taken as stone and I hope you question these results and figure out your own builds and do your own tests much like I and others have :)

Ok, before deciding how much stat points you want to invest in str and dex you need to answer the following questions. Since not all the characters have the same amount of base str + dex starting stats this will just give a ballpark range of a ratio I'd recommend you get.

Do I want to play mainly catacombs or mainly arena?
Will I be wearing an EE heavy armor? Do I want my role to be to tank or deal damage?
How much stats will I be getting from my gear?



Again, these are guidelines and my opinions. I encourage you to disagree (and post why you disagree).

Here are also some random formulas you guys might like, their not 100% accurate (I tested them) but still the best things I've found so far.

Quote
Ladder Slasher melee damage formula:
Chance of critical hit = attacker's dexterity / (500 + attacker's dexterity) + 0.2 per point of critical strike
CritMultiplier = 200% + 1% per point of attacker's dexterity - 1% per point of defender's dexterity
Maximum CritMultiplier = 300% dmg, Minimum critmultiplier = 100% dmg
Normal attack damage = (0.95+ attacker's strength / 100) x base weapon damage - defense
Critical hit damage = (0.95 + attacker's strength / 100) x base weapon damage x CritMultiplier
* base weapon damage is weapon damage shown with 0 strength, average damage = 5.5 x weapon tier

Ladder Slasher magic damage formula:
MagicDamageAmp = 100% + 0.5% per point of attacker's intelligence - 0.5% per point of defender's intelligence
Maximum MagicDamageAmp = 150%, Minimum MagicDamageAmp = 50%
Magic damage = (0.95 + attacker's intelligence / 100) x base charm damage x MagicDamageAmp
* base charm damage is charm damage shown with 0 intelligence, average damage = 5.5 x charm tier

Ladder Slasher healing formula:
Damage healed = (0.95 + intelligence / 100) x (1 + healing mastery / 100) x base charm heal
* base charm heal is charm heal shown with 0 intelligence, average heal = 5.5 x charm tier


This is the guys profile, although some of the other stuff he says I strongly disagree with :http://forums.d2jsp.org/user.php?i=535197

Offensive casting with charm in acc.slot


Recently I have been seeing questions about using an int charm in charm slot and your EE charm in acc.charm slot for offensive casting in arena. This idea seems good and that it will provide higher efficiency however this is almost always not that case.

This is the formula for your damage.

Spell Damage = base* (.95 + int/100)(1 + (EE+prof)/100)

Multiply this by 0,75 since it's in acc.slot.

base* ((.95 + int + x (acc.slot)/100)(1 + (EE+prof)/100))*0,75 > base* (.95 + int/100)(1 + (EE+prof)/100) ?

This means that th amount of int you will need on your charm slot for you charm on the acc.slot to be greater will depend on your current intelligence level (before factoring in the acc slot).

It will almost always be better to keep your EE charm in main slot. Heres a simple rule of thumb to know if it's worth it or not. Take your total int divide it by 3. If that number is higher then the amount of int you'd be getting from an int charm in charm slot, it's not worth it.

the -25% damage/cost effect doesn't work in arena it's 75% damage - 100% cost.

Full list of prefixes, anixes, suffixes for monsters that can spawn

This list isn't complete yet, I'll probably add some more if I do another climb. Heres how I think monster names spawn.

XY (+ Z)

The monsters always have at least an X and Y name and may sometimes have a Z name accompanied by word the None of the words X, Y or Z can be the same. Everything else is random.




X


Angry
Ankle
Awful
Bark
Beastly
Blue
Bold
Brain
Catch
Claw
Clever
Clog
Club
Death
Decay
Demon
Devil
Dread
Dreadful
Ear
Elbow
Entangle
Fang
Filthy
Finger
Flesh
Foot
Fraud
Glove
Gut
Hammer
Hard
Haunt
Head
Indecent
Infamous
Insane
Jaw
Knife
Knuckle
Lung
Metal
Necrotic
Noisome
Nose
Phantom
Razer
Rock
Scythe
Shady
Shoulder
Skin
Smudged
Snout
Spotted
Stinking
Stone
Strong
Tainted
Thigh
Tongue
Tree
Twig
Venom
Wraith
Wicked
wrist
Wood
Wretched

Y

Ankle
Attacker
Bark
Basher
Beak
Bone
Boulder
Burster
Butcher
Chipper
Claw
Clawer
Cleaver
Clencher
Controller
Cracker
Cutter
Destroyer
Digester
Dismantler
Drowner
Elbow
Eradicator
Exterminator
Fang
Feather
Gasher
Glove
Gut
Hacker
Hammer
Hand
Head
Helmet
Knee
Knife
Knuckle
Leather
Lung
Maimer
Marrer
Masher
Muncher
Mutilator
Neck
Nibbler
Nose
Picker
Piercer
Poker
Queller
Razer
Ring
Ruminater
Saboteur
Scarrer
Scavenger
Shatter
Shield
shoulder
Shredder
Slasher
Slayer
Slicer
Slitter
smacker
Snipper
Snout
Snuffer
Splitter
Stamper
Stomach
Sword
Thigh
Tongue
Tree
Trimmer
Waster
Wounder
Wounder


Z


The appalling
The attacker
The basher
The burster
The cleaver
The consumer
The contaminated
The corrupt
The crasher
The crusher
The death
The decay
The desecrate
The destroyer
The detestable
The devourer
The disgraceful
The dishonorable
The dread
The horrid
The horrifying
The impure
The monstrous
The mucky
The nibbler
The nuker
The offensive
The poker
The puncher
The ravager
The repellent
The revolting
The ruminator
The shade
The shredder
The sickening
The slasher
The sleazeball
The smeared
The soiled
The stained
The strong
The sullied
The vulgar
The walloper
The wicked
The zombie

Random Thoughts about Hardcore

Ok I know these rules aren't entirely coming from myself but I thought I'd add them anyways. Basically these are tools to stay alive in Hardcore

-Never play a class with less then 50 base vitality

-Never play when it is lagging

-Prefer EE armors to str/dex armors

-Always make sure you can tank at least 10 hits

-If your using EE armor run when life lower then the *L* or sooner

-If your a caster never go under 50% life

-Don't make a cry topic if/when you die

-Only use a heal charm if it consistently heals more then monsters can damage you

- 5+ evil presences = run

-Game where ambush can be started = run

A mathematical approach at the hybrid healer

Basically this just calculates the aspect of a damage dealing healer. Whether or not you find the extra damage to be worth it is up to you. Personally I don't think it's worth it.

1- Lets assume it's a mage as it's starting stats are more designed for melee then those of a guardian.
2- Lets assume the mage is level 65 with all his points invested into int (75 extra points).
3- Lets assume he has no proficiencies
4- Lets assume he has the gear of an average healer
5- Lets assume monsters don't have defense
6- Lets assume CS don't happen, because I wouldn't know how to calculate them. However since Dexterity isn't changing the % in damage should stay the same so it shouldn't make a noticeable difference (correct me if I'm wrong).

Mage base stats

Strenght- 20
Dexterity- 50
Intelligence- 60
Vitality- 20

Our Mage HEALER stats at level 65

Strenght- 20
Dexterity- 50
Intelligence- 135
Vitality- 20
Heal Mastery- 135 (Equal to his Int for best possible effectiveness)

Our Mage's gear

Magicial Ultimanium Dagger
64-113
+45 Heal Mastery

Magicial Spiderthread Robe
+45 Heal Mastery

Magicial Focused Heal 14
+45 Heal Mastery

Acc.Charm
Magical focused Heal 14
161-193
130 Enhanced Effect

Ok so our average damage attacks are doing 89 damage and our average heals are doing 312

And so our total heal/damage output over 100 actions will be 13360

Ok now lets check out the other option you guys are saying, replacing the HM dagger by one with say 100 enhanced effect as thats how much a 45 heal mastery dagger is worth in enhanced effect about.

Our Mage Hybrid stats at level 65

Strenght- 20
Dexterity- 50
Intelligence- 135
Vitality- 20
Heal Mastery- 90

Our Mage's gear

Magicial Ultimanium Dagger
129-225
100 Enhanced effect

Magicial Spiderthread Robe
+45 Heal Mastery

Magicial Focused Heal 14
+45 Heal Mastery

Acc.Charm
Magical focused Heal 14
161-193
130 Enhanced Effect

Ok so our average damage attacks are doing 177 damage and our average heals are doing 252

And so our total heal/damage output over 100 actions will be 19200

So your being about 70% more effective :P However the amount of total heals you can give drops by a lot.

At level 65 your mana pool will be 6780. So you can give 67 heals so thats :

Healer - 20904
Hybrid - 16884

Your losing 20% of your healing ability for 70% more overall effectiveness.

Personally though, Guardian tank + mana syphon + healer will be the best possible healer if built correctly as it basically has infinite mana pool as well as serving 2 purposes in a cata, tank and healer. I'll admit though they won't work on a budget.

Full thread can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=35555834&f=272

Big shout out to J_B, coolbreeze, mfmage, tondor, bcmcknight77, Casey for helping me in one way or another.
Member
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Oct 16 2009 07:27pm
I had no idea there were that many monsters...

nice seeing them all stuck together. :)
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Oct 16 2009 07:30pm
very nice
should sticky this
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Oct 16 2009 07:32pm
Quote (low-ki @ Sat, 17 Oct 2009, 10:30)
very nice
should sticky this


looks like he's still working on it.

he's asking for opinions still.
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Oct 16 2009 07:34pm
you do realize this is a simple flash game
Member
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Oct 16 2009 07:41pm
that's a lot of info!

btw, you are missing a few monsters from that image. The one with the Elephant, the two aliens, the bats. ;)
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Oct 16 2009 07:41pm
Still interesting thoughts here and I love the monster thingy you made.

And OMG Greapper your sig that I loved to whyne about is back :rofl:
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Oct 16 2009 07:42pm
Quote (MutedDrama @ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 01:34am)
you do realize this is a simple flash game


Took me less time then it takes you to climb to 71 and fail your MQ.

This is my way of giving back to the LS community.

And yes, this is still a work in progress, especially monster section.
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Oct 16 2009 07:48pm
Quote (arxyn @ Sat, 17 Oct 2009, 10:42)
Took me less time then it takes you to climb to 71 and fail your MQ.

This is my way of giving back to the LS community.

And yes, this is still a work in progress, especially monster section.


I appreciate this overview that you are making.
I look forward to the finished copy. :cheers:
ignore the haters.
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Oct 16 2009 08:01pm
Wow that's a lot of info ^_^
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