This is mostly written for myself as a sort of *information dump* of all the things I've been working on for a while now. It's mostly so I can link it from my profile but figured I might share it with you guys in case anyone cares.

Opening thoughts on Str/Dex ratios

Ok this is probably the section where theres the most deductions and most amount of variability to the different opinions. However, I spent an absurd amount of time trying to understand and figure out Str/Dex ratios and this is what I've found out. I'll also include some basic tree graphic type charts to provide guidance on how to stat your character if you decide to follow my point of view.

1- There is no magic number of dexterity

This is one of the first assumptions I made while starting to get interested in the workings of Str and Dex. The reasonings behind this are quite simple. Your total damage comes from both Str/Dex and a certain ratio. The two numbers almost certainly have some type of multiplicative values however how they vary with each other is unknown. The important thing to know though is that they do vary with each other and thus thats why a 120 dex - 70 str ratio build will not work.

2- Your dexterity should not depend on your weapon type

Ok this one is a bit more complicated and the reasoning behind it is almost purely mathematic. This said, statements such as *more dex for swords* are completely irrelevant. If anything axes would be slightly more beneficed from dexterity bonuses.

The biggest part of the logic behind this can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31115563&f=272

3- Catacombs = Less dexterity, Arena = more dexterity

The logic behind this one is slightly more complicated yet still very approachable. Basically the argument goes as follow. Dexterity ignores monsters defense. Arena monsters have higher average defense then catacomb monsters. Therefore dexterity will be more efficient in arena then in catacombs. However just for the sake of being thorough it's important to keep into consideration two things. 1- The critical strike multiplier is also affected by the amount of monsters dexterity compared to your own dexterity. This would thus mean critical strikes would potentially do more damage on average in catacombs then in the arena. However, we would need to evaluate whether the added bonuses from higher critical strikes outweigh, equal, or under weighed the bonuses from the totaled damage potentially lost due to the monsters defense. However due to lack of information we are currently unable to calculate this. I do believe though that the bonuses are highly under weighed. Still, this point is debatable.

More information on this can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31419519&f=272

4- Build your character with a purpose, the type of armor you wear should affect your str/dex ratio (more true in catacombs).

Almost everyone I've talked to strongly disagrees with this point however here goes my reasoning. For the best possibly efficiency you should always look to maximize your characters positive points while not concentrating on it's negative points. Your character should have a purpose. As we all know Dexterity has offensive as well as defensive properties. Therefore if you are getting attacked less often, you have less chances of getting CS'd and thus you will get less of a damage reduction bonus from dexterity. Lets say your using a robe oriented melee character in catacombs. You will be sitting in the back row getting hit less often therefore the defensive bonuses from dexterity are being minimized while if you were using a heavy armor ( Enhanced Effect armor even) character sitting in the front row and tanking the damage your primary role would be to absorb the damage and not necessarily dish out the heavy damage. The robed characters could take care of that. It has also been shown that GENERALLY, point for point, str will yield a stronger damage output then dexterity.

More information on this can be found here : http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31286038&f=272 / http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31446921&f=272 / http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=31419519&f=272

5- The CS multiplier is calculated from your dexterity compared to the monsters dexterity, not the difference in dexterity between the two.

This point I personally tested with the help of tondor (forget your full name, if you read this ask for shoutout, I'll link you). Basically what this means is that the CS multiplier will not be the same if you have 90 dexterity with a 20 dexterity difference of the monster then if you have 120 dexterity with a 20 dexterity difference of the monster. This information isn't extremely useful, however it did prevent us from calculating experimental values (it would still have been possible but would have required easily 20-30x more work so I decided to not continue the testings). Just some fun information to note I guess.

6- Maximize the later levels (55-71)

Pretty straightforward to have the fastest climbs you want to maximize the speed of the parts thats the slowest, the limiting factor. In this case it's the later levels. Therefore your build should be oriented to excel at levels 55-71. I will be using level 65 as my target (10 initial stats + 65 additional stats + x amount of stats from gear = 75 stats + x amount from gear)

Ok now I'm apply the following information and logic to give what I believe would be good guidelines to start your melee journey. However, let me strongly emphasize that these should not be taken as stone and I hope you questions these results and figure out your own builds and do your own tests much like I and others have

Ok, before deciding how much stat points you want to invest in str and dex you need to answer the following questions. Since not all the characters have the same amount of base str + dex starting stats this will just give a ballpark range of a ratio I'd recommend you get.

Do I want to play mainly catacombs or mainly arena?
Will I be wearing an EE heavy armor? Do I want my role to be to tank or deal damage?
How much stats will I be getting from my gear?



Again, these are guidelines and my opinions. I encourage you to disagree (and post why you disagree).

Here are also some random formulas you guys might like, their not 100% accurate (I tested them) but still the best things I've found so far.



This is the guys profile, although some of the other stuff he says I strongly disagree with :http://forums.d2jsp.org/user.php?i=535197

This is mainly for myself and I'm still working on this so feel free to trow out some constructive comments / spam / say hi to me in my guild chat (gets lonely).

Here are some other things I want to add but don't feel like typing in today.

- Offensive casting with charm in acc.slot
- Full list of prefixes, anixes, suffixes for monsters that can spawn
- My opinion on first 10 into vit vs first 10 into str for melee arena
- Some random thoughts about hc

The list of prefixes and suffixes is already mostly done if anyone is wondering 0-1 kills per regen for the win!!

Big shout out to J_B, coolbreeze, mfmage, tondor, bcmcknight77, Casey for helping me in one way or another.

That was alot to try and comprehend... so I can not fathom some of the equations like you... but all I can do, is explain my own melee builds whether I do Arena or Catacombs.
I personally think that you are missing Vitality... this is a key stat for defense and added life during. It may also have an effect with Dexterity

Notes: I use mediocre gear... nothing over 75%... my 55 Plate is 57 EE and my 55 Sword is 60EE... this will give you an idea, and my 55 charm is 26 dex / 24 Vita

Barb build: Start: 5 Vita / 5 Dex.... pump everything into dex to reach 84 @lvl55 will get this... add charm = 110 Dexterity (Base 60 Strength)... then strength after this
... With this setup... I can deal crits of 1.2k and average damage around 280-320... this is still ideal whether I am in Cata or Arena... And yes I can grind @ level 60+ with my setup
@ 55 Stats ARE:
060 Strength
110 Dexterity
005 Intelligence
089 Vitality

Samurai... once again I pump up Vita to reach 65 at the start, then dex to 84, then rest into Strength from there:

Please note that this is base on starting with only the initial 10 points
@ 55 Stats ARE:
055 Strength
110 Dexterity
010 Intelligence
089 Vitality

Paladin... once again I pump up Vita to reach 65 at the start, then dex to 84, then rest into Strength from there:

Please note that this is base on starting with only the initial 10 points
@ 55 Stats ARE:
055 Strength
110 Dexterity
020 Intelligence
089 Vitality
_________________

My defense / damage remains consistent... I even well upto character level 50 with my items.
I use swords and have a 90EE level55 Axe... and I can do more MCCs with my sword compared to my Axe

The sword crits make up for the minimum damage
_________________

I know that I am a bit of a noob to this... but if you start with only white items and test with characters stats only
You will come to a better understanding of the effects of Dexterity & Strength.

I am assuming that you are using Magical + items to check out the equations...
_________________



I think you read it completely wrong... they are identical STAT builds except Int:
It is not a mass Vita build... It is a BASE vita of 65... You do not gain life for the 24 Vita on the charm.
Killing speed is faster with Sword than Axe
Regen time is exactly the Same... with regen gear I heal 50 life per sec

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Oct 14 2009 08:29pm

tl'dr version?

@izParagonzi

Yeah you will prob get longer mcc with mass vita build but also way slower killing speed and longer regen times so imo not worth it anyway.

OT: Interesting stuff, will read it more closely when it's not 4 in the morning.

Yeah I'll adress the vitality point later on. Probably tomorrow if I finish school early enough.

Euh and to quickly go over your other points (I'll ramble more about it tomorrow) in some very rare scenarios where your average damage would be all or almost all absorbed by monsters defense it would be more beneficial to go pure dex as dex ignores defense. That may be something your experiencing I didn't consider.

Using vit as a main mod on equipment is an absolutly horrid idea though. I think thats what I understood you saying...

This post was edited by arxyn on Oct 14 2009 08:39pm

I actually found that Vita on gear was really beneficial... I found that my defense went up quite effectively... even with only 24.
I am assuming that it is calculated like other things
1 Vitality = 0.95% Enhanced Effect
24 Vitality = 23.xx %

I maybe incorrect... since I have passed onto Monk... I will not be able to give proper numbers to the effect... or maybe I get a mule to 55 to see the results compared with my 57 EE plate.

do you have any numbers relatiing to Vita/Dex and how it modifies the defensive capability of the character?

As for the "Dex ignores defense"... I would have to disagree on that matter... I have come across some very strong monsters many times.
Doing like 75-530 damage (thinking that the 530 was a crit)... especially see'ing the next monster taking like 900+ damage back to back... but their life was over 4000 easily...


This post was edited by izParagonzi on Oct 14 2009 10:07pm

nice effort to say the least keep up the good work

Go in PvP and wack some dude with an EE armor using a low tier axe. You will
hit only 0's with the occasional 17-18 consistant damages.

no brain version as an comment of no use?

@ topic: i had my best avg dmg in cata with 150str/140dex on lvl 65. also tried less and more dex.

Do you have s/s of diferent tries? Same gear? How big was the difference? What class were you? How big was your sample size for your average? Not trying to say I don't believe you, just that this is very contradictory to quite a bit of information already posted. Also not that it matters but what was EE on your weapon + were you using heavy weapons?

Anyways just bumping this once to see if theres other points I need to ramble about before continuing with other stuff. Might not have time tonight hockey game.

new points to address

- relation vit vs str/dex
- rare scenarios where pure dex is better
- same str as EE build
- relation longer mccs vs faster kills

This post was edited by arxyn on Oct 15 2009 03:39pm