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May 22 2009 10:39pm
Ok
So to begin here are the points I will be adressing.
1. EE does not affect your str/dex ratio
2. Armor class capabilities does not affect your str/dex ratio (well it would, but barely and not to a really measurable extent)
3. Weapon type does not affect your str/dex ratio see here
4. Arena vs catas DOES affect your str/dex ratio (slightly)
5. some builds that have been suggested and what I think about them

tl:dr version : same dex/str ratio for every single character kthx, slightly less for catas, more for arena

this is mostly for me to link to from my profile, but still worth a read if you're trying to determine what to do with your melee character

1.
Quote (jbpellerin)
your damage is some base number multiplied by the following:
(1+ee/100)(.95+str/100)(1+(%crit)(crit mult - 1))
so to do the most damage, you obviously want that number to be as large as possible
you shouldn't care what it is that makes it large, as long as it is large
There is one small thing not taken into account into this, which is the defense being ignored on a crit
to compensate for that you could add some sort of scaling factor and you would then have (1+ee/100)(.95+str/100)(1+(%crit)(crit mult - 1)(scale)) which would be pretty damn accurate
note: the scaling factor would in this case be dependant on your EE since it has to account for the difference between your damage and the monsters defense
but since nowhere am I pretending to know what (%crit)(crit mult - 1) is, we can actually pretend that the scaling factor doesn't exist, the results won't be affected in any meaningfull way

But if we were to take a step back and consider the scaling factor
we would have
(1+ee/100)(.95+str/100)(1+(%crit)(crit mult - 1)(scale))
and scale would be directly proportional to monster defense, and inversely proprtional to your damage. Monster defense being pretty much a constant since you're doing the same climb no matter what
so you're left with a scaling factor that gets larger as you do less damage, smaller as you do more
something like (damage)/(damage - defense)
your damage, monster's defense
this is something with diminishing returns
plug it in if you must
but I'm telling you, it approaches 1 so fast, that with any decent rate of damage the scaling factor can even be considered constant
this happens even faster in catacombs where the defense of a monster is lower
making the scaling factor effectively ignorable
(if absolutely necessary I can even do some examples with actual numbers)

so if you're still following at this point, basically we have this and we want to make it as big as possible
(1+ee/100)(.95+str/100)(1+(%crit)(crit mult - 1))
now your weapon is your weapon, you can't change it by putting stats somewhere, and obviously to do the most damage you want high ee
so your ee is locked in and you can't change it
now you have
(X)(.95+str/100)(1+(%crit)(crit mult - 1))
and you want to make that as large as possible
X is a constant at this point so now we are making the following as large as possible
(.95+str/100)(1+(%crit)(crit mult - 1))
The way to do this, does not depend on your EE at all


2. crits ignore defense.
dex reduces crit damage
therefore take a set of 100 attacks from monsters and suppose they do 100 damage each, with 10% crits at 30 damage each
so then a 50defense armor vs 10 defense armor. 50 first
90 hits at 50 + 10 hits at 300 : 7500
90 hits at 90 + 10hits at 300 : 11000
give more dex to either and it will reduce the damage from the second part. So what will happen is a robe character's reduction from more dex will be a smaller % of his overall damage received
so this means the heavy armored character takes even less damage. BUT. Suppose you pump optimal dex for damage dealing. Then your robed character benefits nothing from putting in any less, and not much by putting in any more. The same can be said for the plate character. So really, dex shouldn't be viewed as a defensive stat unless it actually turns out that the optimal damage dealing ratio is pure str (which I doubt it the case) but it's still possible.

3. read my link

4. In catas monsters have less dex and less defense. So you don't benefit as much from crits reducing their defense to 0, but you do get to have a higher crit multiplier. But they have a lot less life and usually a crit wastes a lot of damage on overkill. So you can do with a little bit less dex than in Arena. Conversely this means an optimal arena build will have slightly higher dex.

5. The most talked about build is 120dex rest str
- This build is not bad. There has been some~ testing on it so it's not just something made up
The one part I don't like is that this 120 number is static. From the formulas from 1. your dex/str should be dynamic and more of one would generally mean more of the other because their effects are multiplicative.

then there is the dex = 20 +- str build
-I like this one because I think dex and str should be tied to each other. The one downside is I doubt we'd be so lucky as to have a nice little thing like +20 to figure out how much they should be balanced. So this is probably not the closest thing but it's a good start.

theres also even str and dex
-same comments as the previous one

theres the "as much str as EE on weapon, rest into dex"
-I don't like this one. see 1 for reasons why

70-80dex rest str
-same as 120dex for comments


overall, I'd say do your own testing, but don't go pure into one and don't let the numbers get too far appart. Njaguar's not a dumb guy and there are many easy ways he could have easily coded the game for both stats to be effective especially when used in combination. (however someone has pointed out to me that his character uses pure str :P)
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May 22 2009 11:13pm
interesting

I like it...just make sure not to rip into ppl who disagree with you, or dont want to do the math, they are still people


but i am impressed with the time/work put into this :)

thumbs up to you :thumbsup:
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May 22 2009 11:20pm
I go mass STR wit my barb.

Next climb i will try and balance Dex and STR.

See if that will yield better results.

Thanks for the guide :)
Member
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May 22 2009 11:23pm
very nice read.... so how you going to stat your character?


i have to say i liked my full strenght barb over most other builds.

This post was edited by Dam_n on May 22 2009 11:24pm
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May 23 2009 09:10am
Quote (Dam_n @ Fri, 22 May 2009, 23:23)
very nice read.... so how you going to stat your character?


i have to say i liked my full strenght barb over most other builds.


all int
:P
but for 1-20/1-30 when I do melee, I tend to go str = dex+20
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May 23 2009 11:59am
Quote (jbpellerin @ Sat, May 23 2009, 11:10am)
2. crits ignore defense.
dex reduces crit damage
therefore take a set of 100 attacks from monsters and suppose they do 100 damage each, with 10% crits at 30 damage each
so then a 50defense armor vs 10 defense armor. 50 first
90 hits at 50 + 10 hits at 300 : 7500
90 hits at 90 + 10hits at 300 : 11000
give more dex to either and it will reduce the damage from the second part. So what will happen is a robe character's reduction from more dex will be a smaller % of his overall damage received
so this means the heavy armored character takes even less damage. BUT. Suppose you pump optimal dex for damage dealing. Then your robed character benefits nothing from putting in any less, and not much by putting in any more. The same can be said for the plate character. So really, dex shouldn't be viewed as a defensive stat unless it actually turns out that the optimal damage dealing ratio is pure str (which I doubt it the case) but it's still possible.



The optimal damage ratio of str/dex is 100% strength and no dex. This has been shown by actual in-game testing. If you are only concerned about doing maximum damage, go pure strength, like njaguar's paladin.

Your example is very nice for showing how having higher dex reduces the damage you take to a larger percentage if you have stronger armor. This is why I recommend pure strength for monk/ninja and 140str/120dex for fighter/barb/sammy/pally, because the plated chars will be tanking while the monks/ninjas will be in the back.

I also agree that EE is pretty much independent of str/dex allocation.




This post was edited by setyourselfonfire on May 23 2009 11:59am
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