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Sep 30 2008 05:30pm
The Ancients Quest

- one guide to end all speculation


Table of Contents
- [1] Rite of Passage
- [2] The Ancients
- [3] Quest Reward (Experience)
- [4] When to Complete the Ancients Quest ?


[1] Rite of Passage

Quest description ("Rite of Passage") @ the Arreat Summit (the website)
> http://battle.net/diablo2exp/quests/act5.shtml

So, to receive quest credit, you must satisfy the following,

Code
(Quest requirements)

Normal: clvl 20+
Nightmare: clvl 40+
Hell: clvl 60+

You need to be at the Summit when the last of the 3 Ancients is defeated.

"Rite of Passage" (the Ancients quest) and "Tools of the Trade" (the Horadric Malus quest of Act I) are the only quests that have character level reqs. The imbue quest requires clvl 8 on all difficulties.
To complete either of these quests, you MUST meet the requirements.

If more than one party fight the Ancients, only the party defeating the last of the Ancients receive quest credit (and still only characters satisfying the quest requirements).


[2] The Ancients

This section lists important properties of the Ancients. Some of them are well-known, others you may not be familiar with.

Code
The Ancients are Animal class monsters and Super Uniques

Values given by difficulty (Normal/Nightmare/Hell). Resistances are BASE values and may be affected by random boss modifiers.
The Ancients have no permanent modifiers, but they each gain, at random, 1 additional modifier in Nightmare and 2 in Hell.
No more than 2 immunities allowed (the game will simply not pick modifiers that would result in more than 2 immunities).

Ancient                  Talic (the Defender)          Madawc (the Guardian)          Korlic (the Protector)
Level (mlvl)                  40/71/90                       40/71/90                       40/71/90

Attack Rating             1 051/3 420/8 995              1 051/3 420/8 995              1051/3 420 /8 995
Defense (base, avg)          136/366/686                     23/91/130                     138/345/608

Fire Resist (%)               70/70/110                       0/ 0/ 50                      70/70/ 70
Cold Resist (%)                0/ 0/ 50                      70/70/ 70                       0/ 0/150  
Lightning Resist (%)           0/ 0/ 50                      70/70/100                       0/ 0/ 50
Poison Resist (%)             70/70/ 50                       0/ 0/ 50                      70/70/ 50
Magic Resist (%)               0/ 0/  0                       0/ 0/  0                       0/ 0/  0
Physical Resist (%)           70/70/ 40                       0/ 0/ 40                      70/70/ 40

Drain Effectiveness *) (%)       100                            100                            100
Chill Effectiveness **) (%)       0                          25/25/ 15                          0

Whirlwind (slvl)              15/18/22
Shout (slvl)                                                   5/8/12
Leap Attack (slvl)                                                                            5/8/12

*) The amount of a character's life and mana steal applying to that monster. 100% is all, 0 is none at all (unleechable).
**) The amount of a character's cold length applying to that monster. 100% is full duration, 0 is no chill/freeze at all.

Note that Chill Effectiveness has nothing to do with cold resist. In particular, a Chill Effectiveness of 0 does NOT mean the monster is immune to cold damage.

For an explanation to boss modifiers, refer to
  • Grimborn's Guide to Boss Mods - by Grimborn @ the Amazon Basin
Several modifiers affect the overall damage dealt by the Ancients, hence damage is not listed above. It would be much too complicated to account for everything - and not very useful to you either.
Besides, those who care (I would assume at least some HC players) are already alert to every potentially dangerous damage modifier on the Ancients before they rush straight into battle.


[3] Quest Reward (Experience)

The Arreat Summit states that the maximum experience gain is limited to 1 character level (refer to the first link). OK, but how about the experience bonus in the first place ? The maximum experience
boost from the quest is FIXED by difficulty,

Code
(Maximum experience bonus)

Normal: 1 400 000 (1.4 million)
Nightmare: 20 000 000 (20 million)
Hell: 40 000 000 (40 million)

These numbers apply to the quest kill only. If you defeat the Ancients again, you will be looking at a neat little bonus of 1 experience.

Additionally,
  • Experience Shrine, Annihilus, and Ondal's Wisdom do NOT give additional experience from the Ancients Quest. Neither alone, nor when combined.
  • Number of players makes NO difference. Keep this in mind before taking on the Ancients with an 8-man party, as they may prove tough to defeat.
Alright, the Arreat Summit claims the maximum experience gain is limited to 1 character level. In view of the maximum numbers above, there should be a penalty then for completing the quest "too early",
i.e. at lower character levels whenever you would get 2 or more levels. How does this work ?

If you are clvl 20 and do the Normal Ancients when you are exactly 50% of the way to clvl 21, once the quest is done, you will be clvl 21 and exactly 50% of the way to clvl 22.
Always works like that, you get one level and are the same amount (%) away from the next level.

Thanks to The_Morpheus (Morph) for bringing this to my attention in the first version. Remember, it applies only when you cannot get the maximum experience. But exactly how significant is this penalty ?

Look at the experience table @ the Arreat Summit,
> http://battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/levels.shtml

Picking out the relevant numbers: clvl 20 ~ 537 513 (+134 378) and clvl 21 ~ 671 891 (+167 973), we see that a massive amount of experience (more than 1 million !) is flat out WASTED if we complete
the quest @ clvl 20, as opposed to leveling further before taking on the Ancients. Which naturally raises the pertinent question ...


[4] When to Complete the Ancients Quest ?

Despite it being the level requirement, clvl 20 is obviously not the answer. Then what may be ? Actually, this depends on your style of play. People walking the game usually have other preferences than
people rushing and aiming for high levels. A walker will want to complete the Ancients Quest, as entering the Worldstone Keep is impossible otherwise. I'll try to account for both options (walking, rushing)
and then leave it for you to decide which scenario suits your character the best.

Walker's Choice
During Normal Act V, one could reasonably expect to reach clvl 30-40 from killing most monsters you encounter. Upon arriving at the Summit, the question is, are we certain to get a level from the quest ?
We should look at the experience table from the Arreat Summit,

Code
clvl     Experience Needed     Experience to Next Level

30           4 663 553                 829 810
31           5 493 363                 904 492
32           6 397 855                 985 897
33           7 383 752               1 074 627
34           8 458 379               1 171 344
35           9 629 723               1 276 765
36          10 906 488               1 391 674 icon_pointl.gif !
37          12 298 162               1 516 924
38          13 815 086               1 653 448
39          15 468 534               1 802 257
40          17 270 791               1 964 461

Since Normal Ancients yield at most 1 400 000 exp, clvl 36 is just perfect, regardless of our experience bar when we reach the Summit. We gain a level as well as the maximum experience (1.4 million).

By the same token, clvl 66 is perfect for Nightmare Ancients, whereas clvl 74 will ensure a level from Hell Ancients. Browse the experience table to verify these.

So, clvls 36/66/74 are the highest that will grant you a straight level from an empty experience bar. Still, one might argue that if you wait and kill just "a little" at clvls 37/67/75 in Normal/Nightmare/Hell,
thereby gaining ~117/126/102 k experience (this does not require much time), you receive a level from the Ancients Quest even then.

You know what to consider. The decision is yours to make.


High-leveler's Choice
At high levels (meaning clvl 90+), the main concern is to reduce the duration of leveling, whether you partake in Diablo runs, Baal runs, or leech in (Uber) Tristram. The Ancients Quests are relevant here,
as the maximum experience bonus is fixed, whereas the experience gained from leeching or doing runs decreases with clvl.

Now, consider two cases,
    (1) Saving Normal + Nightmare Ancients (21.4 M experience). Defeating Hell Ancients to be able to enter Throne of Destruction.
    (2) Saving all 3 Ancients Quests (61.4 M experience). First leeching in UT, then resolving to running CS and Nith in Baal runs.
The reason for (1) is simple, it enables you to run CS in Baal runs and still get experience from the last 2-3 Baal minion waves and Baal himself. This is the most popular method for high-leveling in practice.
Obviously, it requires a fast-paced character capable of quickly clearing the seal bosses and vanquishing Diablo before the 5 minion waves and Baal are down.

Either way, a classic rush, killing Diablo in Hell (or a standard grush, using gaters for the Baal quest) is convenient. Convert to expansion and leech in UT until ~clvl 85-90. Few aspects of D2 provide more
intense boredom, but we are talking efficiency here, not "fun". Join full Baal runs and go by either (1) or (2). You receive the entire experience pool in CS, plus you have a chance of finding good items.

How much time do we save ? We need a rough estimate. For that purpose, I have chosen to compare the run-wise experience gain in Baal runs (full game, Minions + Baal, no exp boosters) which may
be found in The 90+ Exp Guide (first table section).

I choose to believe that people responsible for that table have conducted their in-game research properly. Otherwise, it's hammer time ! d-lol.gif

The table below lists the Baal run equivalent (number of runs), level equivalent (% of 'Experience to Next Level'), and estimated run time saved, calculated @ 3 minutes each run, if we were to complete
the Ancients Quests at each of the clvls 90-98, following case (1) / (2).

Code
clvl     Baal run Equivalent *)     Level Equivalent     Run time saved @ 3 min./run

90            4.3 /  12.3            14.7% / 42.0%             13 min. / 37 min.
91            6.1 /  17.5            13.4% / 38.6%             18 min. / 53 min.
92           10.7 /  30.7            12.3% / 35.4%             32 min. /  1.5 h
93           16.5 /  47.2            11.3% / 32.5%             49 min. /  2.4 h
94           26.8 /  76.8            10.4% / 29.8%              1.3 h  /  3.8 h
95           48.1 / 138.0             9.5% / 27.3%              2.4 h  /  6.9 h
96           66.9 / 191.9             8.7% / 25.1%              3.3 h  /  9.6 h
97          130.5 / 374.4             8.0% / 23.0%              6.5 h  / 18.7 h
98          334.4 / 959.4             7.4% / 21.1%             16.7 h  / 48.0 h

*) Precision affected by approximate 'Exp per run' values listed in "The 90+ Exp Guide". Same goes for 'Run time saved' in this table.

In view of the above, it should come as no surprise why the extreme players aiming for clvl 99 will want to save at least the Normal + Nightmare Ancients Quests until clvl 98. At first, it might seem that
(2) is clearly the most efficient approach. However, only (1) provides experience from both CS and the last few Throne waves + Baal. In the end, this will most likely prove to be more efficient than (2).

Similar tables may be worked out, taking experience boosters into account (of course, the Level Equivalent remains unaffected). These are hereby left to the reader as an exercise.


Acknowledgments
  • The Amazon Basin - "Grimborn's Guide to Boss Mods" [2]
  • The Arreat Summit - Rite of Passage quest description [1], Ancients data [2], experience table [3]
  • Diablo 2 Wiki @ Diablowiki - Ancients data [2] (Category:Monsters)
Yell if you see any errors. Or else, hit me with your wise or witty comments.
Member
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Sep 30 2008 05:31pm
Man why are you bothering with all this pointless stuff...

you can just use commen sense..

This post was edited by wesley123 on Sep 30 2008 05:32pm
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Sep 30 2008 05:34pm
Quote (wesley123 @ Wed, 1 Oct 2008, 01:31)
Man why are you bothering with all this pointless stuff...

Because not everybody in these forums knows how to use common sense. OK ?

And I like writing guides.

This post was edited by Faelwen on Sep 30 2008 05:36pm
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Sep 30 2008 05:35pm
good post, appreciate the table at the end to find out how much the ancients are helping me from baaling. Thanks
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Sep 30 2008 05:36pm
Quote (Faelwen @ Tue, Sep 30 2008, 05:34pm)
Because not everybody in these forums know how to use common sense.


everybody knows this... That's why they conitnually to ask about builds that are already stickied....

besides the ones with no common sense probably couldn't understand guides anyways, with the constant repost "iso (insert char type/class here) guide"
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Sep 30 2008 05:48pm
Quote (killzzs @ Wed, 1 Oct 2008, 01:35)
good post, appreciate the table at the end to find out how much the ancients are helping me from baaling. Thanks

You're welcome.

Quote (zdawnz @ Wed, 1 Oct 2008, 01:36)
besides the ones with no common sense probably couldn't understand guides anyways, with the constant repost "iso (insert char type/class here) guide"

I write guides for those curious enough to read and sometimes learn something.
Does not necessarily mean they have no common sense, I should think ...

Or those who like references or merely need to refresh their memory.

The rest, well, you already described them in sufficient detail.
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Sep 30 2008 06:17pm
time for ancient runs i guess? I would rather get 40mil from ancients then like 1mil from baal.

edit: guess i skimmed the guide too quickly. Reread it and found the part where u say the 40mil is quest kill only. sad.gif

This post was edited by MasterBasher on Sep 30 2008 06:20pm
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Oct 4 2008 07:17pm
^^
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Nov 23 2008 03:13pm
Guide bump
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