sorry for the spam but my_lesson you need to stop going by the damn studies because with every study theres another one saying the exact opposite.. everytime you bring up an argument its about studies. not everybody reacts to everything the same way especially in this sport.. what works for one person may not work for the next.. GO BY FEELING NOT BY BOOKS ALL THE TIME

vouch

double vouch =)

sometimes studies are a good baseline but for all honesty studies can be manipulated to show any result they would like to prove for personal agendas. The best method is talking to people and figuring things out by independently studying it yourself...as always.

No need to be upset with my_lesson though, we all need second opinions sometimes...I'm sure he was just sharing his beliefs which are indeed welcome nonetheless =)

This post was edited by SKCRaynor on Jul 28 2008 06:20pm

FROM AN ANONYMOUS PM - I AM POSTING THIS TO HELP ANYONE ELSE IN A SIMILAR SITUATION!


QUESTION:

i just noticed ur training schedule and im wondering if you could help my situation, im no noobie to body building i've been training for the past 6 years, but now i've really decided to show rather then just be bulk, im sitting at 5'11 and 250 pounds and i can outrep my body weight in every excercise realistically, now i've been working construction my day goes as follows: 4:45 am, wake up, 5 am, eat, bagel, whole wheat toast, one of the two, meal 2, 6:30 am, bagel or apple or sometimes sandwhich be4 work starts, 9 am, fruit fruit cup snak pak vector bar, meal 2 12:00, sandwhich diet coke, meal 3, 3:00, granola bar water, come home around 5, shower, eat usually an overly big meal being italian its usually a pasta, and meat and something else.... then i usually hit the gym for a couple of hours of hard training...

im looking to get into a seriously hardcore training routine, and cut alot of excess pooundage, and show all the muscle i know i got lol

if you could set one up for me itd be much appreciated, thx


REPLY:


hey there..I'd be glad to help you.

First off with you being in construction and working out at night for a couple hours means you are burning at least 1,000 calories a day just from exercise...not to mention the basal metabolism of at least another 2,000 calories. To be completely honest...I think what you need to do is the following to achieve your goals:

Cut the carbs out after you get home from work. After work, no more carbs except from vegetables. I know the pasta at night is good, but you have to eliminate that from your diet if you want to cut up and burn that fat off. Also right before bed start drinking a protein shake or eating cottage cheese to help keep ur metabo up during the day. Also try to drink caffeine (coffee or tea without sugar, or take atrophex/jet-fuel which are caffeine based fat burners). With all that in mind, make sure you take in a lot of EFA (essential fatty acids) to speed up ur metabo and help burn fat and keep your blood vessels clean. EFA's come from HDL fats like olive oil, eggs, fish, flax, avocados, etc.

After the diet in place, you should also begin to start doing focus training. An example of focus training would be -

Monday - chest + abs
Tuesday - back + abs
Wednesday - Legs
Thursday - Shoulders + abs
Friday - Arms + abs
Saturday - Abs
Sunday - TOTAL REST


Also make sure you're getting PLENTY of sleep (at least 8 hours) each night. IF you arent that can definitely hinder your progress. Also make sure to drink at least 1-2 GAL of water a day (preferably ice water to help boost metabo further).

Ok hope this helps man, good luck,

If you feel like donating, It's always appreciated.

Thanks, and good luck BE SAFE!

-SKCRaynor

This post was edited by SKCRaynor on Jul 28 2008 06:19pm

I agree, it's okay to be skeptical and demanding real evidence is sometimes a virtue rather than a vice

However, common sense and practicality all have to play a role... years and years of studies can't replace years and years in the gym and under the bar

You can't have one without the other, both play a role, but one does not dominate the other as far as studies vs. real world experience in my opinion

But you can't expect everyone to be on the same page because even in this small microcosm of trainees on d2jsp, there is disagreement that reflects disagreements in the rest of the world... largely due to the fact that there is more than one way to get from point A to point B


I apologize if I am hijacking the thread, but I thouht I'd share my opinion on "thick necks" or better known as "the yoke"... Shrugging is great and so is the neck harness, but I think all that should be used in conjunction with heavy deadlifts/rack pulls (if you haven't been already).... I'd make sure to rotate in heavy rack pulls.... in my opinion one of the BEST exercises to put on upper back mass

Show me a guy that can rack pull 700+ and DOESN'T have an impressive neck/upper back

I wouldn't want to say that I'm going by books when I refer to stuides - These studies are done with and on real people. The doctors that do these studies doesn't throw dice of what they write. They've done much detailed research of what should and can happen, then they take a big number of real persons and test their theorys what really happends.

See it like this: You test a new supplement that gives some improvements. Now to the improvements - Was it just imagination? Could it been placebo? Was it other factors that made the improvements? Would you've done the same improvements without the supplement?
You cant know this to a certain degree.

Now most studies work like this. You get a number of random (or choosed out) people that are being tested. Could be hundred, could be thousand.
First the doctor take tests on what they want to test, maybe this new supplement is suppose to increase your level of growth hormone.
He tests every person and measures how high levels of growth hormone all the persons originally got.
Now he splits this group of people in three random groups.
Group 1 is given this supplement.
Group 2 is given a placebo supplement that looks the same.
Group 3 is given nothing.
Of course group 2 doesn't know that they took placebo.
Then after a given time the doctor tests every person again how high their level of growth hormone is and write a conclusion if the supplement had any effects on the levels of growth hormone compared with the group that took placebo supplement and the one that took nothing.
He also writes what other factors could have changed the results so that you, the reader can make your own understanding so that you can make your own conclusion and compare the study to other studies.

For example, you wouldn't feel any difference in any way if you switched your whey protein with casein protein. Still you know that theres a difference how and when you should use them, that's thanks to studies. You would never been able to figure out that yourself.

Most studies points at one direction. It's very rare that two high quality studys point at different directions and if they do you should be able to make your own conclusion about which is closest to you.

So basicly, these studies are real living persons experiences under supervision by a doctor that tried their best to show the results for you to make your own opinion about it.
You shouldn't blindly believe stuides, you should make your own opinion after reading the studie or maybe more on the subject.

This post was edited by My_Lesson on Jul 28 2008 06:57pm

Hey there -

My_Lesson, I think you misunderstood what we said. We were saying that the "studies" that are done under controlled conditions are merely alleged studies performed in order to prove a point. The results can be manipulated in order to favor one side or another. The major point of this is that experience trumps studies of all kinds. The best way to find out if stretching or anything else for that matter are effective is to talk to guys at the gym who have been working out for years and years and know what works. Speak to athletes, bodybuilders, chiropractors, medical doctors, and personal trainers...virtually everyone will agree that by personal opinion - light stretching before and after a vigorous weight-lifting workout will yield better pump, larger range of motion, as well as greater strength gains over a period of time - which a lesser propensity for injury.

I'm not arguing that the studies are incorrect, but rather saying that its best to go by what works for YOUR body...vs the bodies of those people who participated in the studies. Don't forget, studies are not perfect...especially those that study the human body which differs so greatly between each of us. Another example would be creatine - for some people its extremely effective for gaining muscle size and strength, other people say they have absolutely no change between using creatine and not.

All in all, I'd say let personal experience, and the advice of those who have personal experience be your guide. Studies may be a good baseline, but in general do not reflect the actuality for everyone =)

Complete vouch - rack pulls and deadlifts are OVERALL excellent exercises. I would reccomend using that for building back, and the total body in general. However - exclusive neck training would not come from these exercises directly but more as secondary or tertiary effect. Rack Pulls develop huge back strength and size gains, right along with deadlifts and good-mornings =)

Any tips on improving one's clean? It's a pesky excercise for me in terms of making gains.
I rep more than my bodyweight for cleans, but it just doesn't improve as much as I'd like it too.

If you can help, it'll be much obliged.

this isnt my topic...not sure how ur technique is but any technique can always use improvemtn...but try doing high pulls, front squats and shoulders raises (not where u put ur arms straight out, as in when u pull the bar up towards ur chin and ur elbows near ur ears)...those usually help to break through barriers..lmk how it goes