The everlasting discussion about Grief vs Lastwish. I made a new Calculation, because the calculation here in this thread (http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=48695603&f=161) was without Enigma on LW-Setup for faster Organ-Runs.

The common Grief Setup:

The Gear:

Helm Gulli
Rüstung Duress
Waffe Grief
Schild upped Zaka
Gloves Draculs
Belt Verdungo
Schuhe GoblinToe
Ring1 Raven
Ring2 Dwarf
Amulett Highlord
Anni 20/20

Grief is perf with 400ED/40 Ias

This setup has following stats:
HS-Lvl: 26
Smite-Lvl: 26
Fanatism- Lvl: 24
Str. req: 142
ED: 400
OffWeap Ed: 20% (Duress)
CB: 75%
OW: 58%
Base Ress on Hell: 82
Ress vs Meph: -43
average Smite Damage: 5978,735
average Smite Damage with Salvation: 3458,86
NO-Bo-on switch for extra Skill
LifeTap-Wand on switch for prebuffing







Here for u the Average Damage Ratio vs. Meppl:
with Fanatism: 19117
with Salvation: 16250



For U now the average Damage vs. Baal or Diablo:
with Fanatism: 12264

Summary Grief Setup:

needed hits: 40 (Salvation Meph) + 53 (Dia) + 53 (Baal) = 146 Hits
Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Salvation Meph: 13356
Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Fanatism Meph: 13928

Next: The Last Wish Setup

The Gear:
Helm Coa 2x15@/15ias
Rüstung Enigma
Waffe LastWish
Schild Exile 1600+
Gloves Draculs
Belt Verdungo
Schuhe Goblin Toe
Ring1 Raven
Ring2 BK
Amulett Mara30
Anni 20/20

This setup has following stats:
HS-Lvl: 28
Smite-Lvl: 28
Fanatism- Lvl: 30
Str. req: 174
ED: 0
OffWeap Ed: 200% (Might from LW)
CB: 95%
OW: 25%
Base Ress on Hell: 141 (with +56 from LW Fade)
Ress vs Meph: +16 (with +56 from LW Fade)
average Smite Damage: 1971,215
average Smite Damage with Salvation: 1256,07
Bo on Switch



For u now the average Damage vs. Meppl:
with Fanatism: 17105
with Salvation: 15476



For U now the Average Damage vs. Diablo and Baal
with Fanatism: 10655

Summary LW Setup:

needed hits: 42 (Salvation Meph) + 61 (Dia) + 61 (Baal) = 164 Hits
Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with salvation Meph: 11890
Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with fanatism Meph: 12187


Conclusion:

When both setups use Salvation vs. Meph

LW: Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Salvation Meph: 11890
Grief: Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Salvation Meph: 13356

Grief Setup offers nearly no defense quality, but it deals great Damage for a lower price. For all offensive players and all that cannot afford an Enigma+LW+Coa+Exile - Grief is the best choice.

Grief Setup -> Gozu Offense, Cheap, defensively weak, no teleport (slower organ Runs),
LW Setup -> Gozu Defense, Expensive, moderate offense, teleport (faster organ Runs)


To finish this now - some interesting data to think about:

1. The raw damage
Grief starts with
average Smite Damage: 5978,735
LW starts with
average Smite Damage: 1971,215

Grief has ~300% more smite damage when u are NOT in UT

The average Damage in UT with fanatism:
Grief: 13928
LW: 12187

In UT - Grief has only 14,29% more damage then LW

In the Beginning it seems that Grief offers 3 times more damage then LW - but in reality its shown

-> Crushing Blow > all Grief nearly looses all of his damage advantage - in the end it deals only 14% more damage instead of the 300% from the beginning! If an 300% Advantage decrease to 14% when u start using it - it looks like that grief was not made for UT! Its still a bit stronger - but it seems that its not the one and only



2. Variation of LW-Setup
- Using Zaka (15@/15Ias) + Coa (2x15@/15Ias) will nearly give u stacked ress vs. meppl and a little bit more damage
- add Arach for additional damage
with these 3 changes u will kill:
Meph within 35 Hits
Dia+Baal within 57 Hits each
together: 149 = 13087 average Damage in UT - only 900 less then Grief-Setup with still good life tap, good life, good ress without salvation, and still teleport

3. Using Forti
- Forti gives u 300% of Weap Ed and up to 30 Ress, but u have 2 skills less
- Ur ress will be stacked when u use variation from 2.
- u will kill:
Meph within 34 Hits
Dia and Baal within 55 hits each
together: 144 Hits = 13541 average Damage in UT - only 400 less then in Grief-Setup
- u will loose abilty to teleport

4. Using Gulli in LW-Setup to reach 100% CB
- with 2.+3. and additonal Gulli u will loose lots of ress and one free spot for Jool or Rune - and u also loose 1 Skill
but in Hitsequenz u will finish the bosses faster
Meph: 33 Hits
Dia+Baal: 54 Hits each
together: 141 Hits = 13829 average damage
Problem could be: u may need to switch to Salvation, what lowers ur attack speed a lot

When u compare now Grief-Setup with salvation @Meph and variation of LW-Setup u have
Grief: Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Salvation Meph: 13356
LW variation with Gulli 15/15, Zaka 15/15, Arach, Forti with Fana @Meph: 13829

(If someone needs i can also post the sequences for last scenario)

Well - we all know, that Grief is a great weapon to go UT - we also know the Grief deals more damage when u are NOT in UT. Just on the paper. The ed what u get through CB makes LW an interesting option if u can afford it. With LW u have the chance to vary your gear to build up a smiter that fits with ur preferences, thanks to the 60-70% CB it already has. Combined with the 56 Ress from Fade and the add. LifeTap u have everything u need on an item for UT. There is a lot of space to optimize u gear - for more damage (to get close to Grief-Damage) - more Ress (to adhere using Fanatism) - or whatever u need.

In my (noob) opinion - Grief is NOT THE UBER-WEAPON. LW offers nearly the same damage (when u gear up for damage) - with highest possible safety.

Now - i´m nearly finished - for all the Grief-Lovers - i know that Grief does 4 Hits/s and LW only 3. But the Time is soooo uninteresting when u think about each second u are charging to UberIzuael compared to teleport - even with lowest FCR For u - check out this:

LW: Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Salvation Meph: 11890
smite speed: ~3smites/s
Total time needed for 164hits: 54,66s

Grief: Total average damage vs. 3 UT Bosses with Salvation Meph: 13356
smites with 4 Smites/s
Total time needed for 146 Hits: 36,5s

If ur way to lilith or izual takes only 18,16s longer then with Enigma-Teleporter Setup - Griefs average damage/second will be lower then LWs.

And yes - u can let another char teleport to Izuael or Lilith...2 Guys with equip would be faster then 1 Guy with LW/Enigma.

dunno

no comments? Whats up guys - everytime someone says LW is better then Grief u kill him here in the forum...cmon Kill me

Its obvious that they are both fairly equal only noobs think LW is a bad choice for an uber smiter.

Its basically the perfect Uber-Smiter weapon giving your Fade (Res) CB (70%) and Lifetap.

A GG Grief build may be better but it'll also be far more expensive and lastwishes are not expensive on NL.

It comes down to preference and what gear u have. I like my LW uber smiter that has 80+ all res even with mephs conviction and barely ever gets damaged as oppose to some grief builds that can be 1 shotted by mephisto.

This post was edited by Andrewchos on Jul 10 2011 04:42am

jesus
nice work dude

so new guy with 89 posts who are you really?

lolz

well, i didnt read all wall of text, but i agree with your conclusion
tl;dr version:
grief/duress/gulli for slowest organs and fast ubers (u can RIP @ lilith with amp curse)
lw/enigma for fastest organs and a bit slower ubers and 100% safe

LW allows Nigma so if your gonna be running Organs that already increases your speed 10x fold.

+ in Trist if one of the bosses gets surrounded by creeps or runs into a house you can easily tele ontop of them + survivabily.

Just a few more reasons why LW/Nigma build is > Grief/Duress

so besides this being an obvious multi account-
why would anyone doubt LW in ubers? everyone knows LW is good for ubers.

People will call you a noob for using LW in pvp, that is the difference. Maybe he mistakes what those people are talking about?
Grief is mediocre for ubers. Ideally, a smiter should have a 100% crushing blow capped ias setup with lifetap and OW and just whack away until the ubers are low, then press W for grief and finish it off with high base damage and moderate crushing blow
heck, you could be smiting with a cracked buckler, no holy shield and a last wish + guillaimes setup and you'd kill ubers just as fast if you manage the IAS somehow, long as you keep grief on switch

last wish also has the fun ability to make it so that any PvP char can easily do ubers. Just slap a LW zerker on any PvP smiter or BvC or fury druid or kicker, and they *will* be able to do ubers (it might just take a while)
thats the advantage of having your tap, cb, fade and decent damage all in one item. Its not the best setup for any uber character, but its fairly cheap and very effective and easy to stash.

I can take my normal old bvc and sub out his grief for last wish and kill ubers all day long with 1 point frenzy

Grief will always do more damage than lastwish
It will always clear ubers quicker
It will always do it cheaper

Isnt this a known fact already?