Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 25 2011 06:37pm)

Yeah it isn't the -% chance that's really doing the deed, it's the ds from EDC. You guys need to understand that only part of zeal is uninterruptable, and then only the animation is uninterruptable. You are still blocking or FHRing if you get hit. And remember about FHR, it only occurs when a certain percentage of base life is dealt. EDC has so much higher damage than BotDz does, especially when you are only using 15% ds on BotDz, that even when you roll a low hit with ds you have a very high chance of forcing an FHR on the other zealot.

Say you have 2300 -  8300 dmg with botdz and 1800 - 7000 dmg with EDC (these are similar to what you show in the guide)

With botdz you have 15% ds, with EDC you have 81% chance of ds.

(8300-2300)/2 = 3000 + 2300 = 5300. 5300 * .17 pvp pen * .5 damage reduced = 450.5 average dmg * .15% deadly strike = 518 average pvp damage

(7000-1800)/2 = 2600 + 1800 = 4400 *.17pvp pen * .5 dmg red = 374 avg dmg * .81% ds = 677 average pvp damage

That's quite a bit of extra average damage in zeal duels. Assuming ~3500 life on average, that's around 7 hits to win on average with botdz and only 5 to win with edc on average.

And FHR plays into it like this:

If the attack deals more than
- 1/16 of the targets max HP, they have a 37.5% chance to go into fhr
- 1/8 of the targets max HP, they have a 75% chance to go into fhr
- 1/4 of the targets max HP, they have a 100% chance to go into fhr

When your FHR is lower than the speed at which you are being attacked, you open yourself to allowing multiple consecutive hits.

Let's say a paladin has 3900 life as the shaftstop setup in this guide does. 1/8 = .125 * 3900 = 487.5 = the amount of damage needed for a 75% chance to put opponent into FHR. Now remember, botdz only does 450.5 average damage before ds, which means 85% of your hits only have a 37.5% chance to make them go into FHR. But with EDC, you have an 81% chance to make them go into FHR 75% of the time.

So, in summary, either get more life, more damage, or more FHR if you want to exploit this or prevent it from happening. But now you know the mechanic behind what you are observing in game..

Quote (dark-soul @ Sep 24 2011 05:13pm)

ah okay before my time then. Welcome back to melee

Quote (Neko @ Sep 24 2011 09:35pm)

Going stalk me, too? Awesome I have fans.

Quote (Neko @ Sep 24 2011 09:43pm)

I've drop it long time ago...

Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 25 2011 12:37pm)

Yeah it isn't the -% chance that's really doing the deed, it's the ds from EDC. You guys need to understand that only part of zeal is uninterruptable, and then only the animation is uninterruptable. You are still blocking or FHRing if you get hit. And remember about FHR, it only occurs when a certain percentage of base life is dealt. EDC has so much higher damage than BotDz does, especially when you are only using 15% ds on BotDz, that even when you roll a low hit with ds you have a very high chance of forcing an FHR on the other zealot.

Say you have 2300 -  8300 dmg with botdz and 1800 - 7000 dmg with EDC (these are similar to what you show in the guide)

With botdz you have 15% ds, with EDC you have 81% chance of ds.

(8300-2300)/2 = 3000 + 2300 = 5300. 5300 * .17 pvp pen * .5 damage reduced = 450.5 average dmg * .15% deadly strike = 518 average pvp damage

(7000-1800)/2 = 2600 + 1800 = 4400 *.17pvp pen * .5 dmg red = 374 avg dmg * .81% ds = 677 average pvp damage

That's quite a bit of extra average damage in zeal duels. Assuming ~3500 life on average, that's around 7 hits to win on average with botdz and only 5 to win with edc on average.

And FHR plays into it like this:

If the attack deals more than
- 1/16 of the targets max HP, they have a 37.5% chance to go into fhr
- 1/8 of the targets max HP, they have a 75% chance to go into fhr
- 1/4 of the targets max HP, they have a 100% chance to go into fhr

When your FHR is lower than the speed at which you are being attacked, you open yourself to allowing multiple consecutive hits.

Let's say a paladin has 3900 life as the shaftstop setup in this guide does. 1/8 = .125 * 3900 = 487.5 = the amount of damage needed for a 75% chance to put opponent into FHR. Now remember, botdz only does 450.5 average damage before ds, which means 85% of your hits only have a 37.5% chance to make them go into FHR. But with EDC, you have an 81% chance to make them go into FHR 75% of the time.

So, in summary, either get more life, more damage, or more FHR if you want to exploit this or prevent it from happening. But now you know the mechanic behind what you are observing in game.

Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 25 2011 12:37pm)

Yeah it isn't the -% chance that's really doing the deed, it's the ds from EDC. You guys need to understand that only part of zeal is uninterruptable, and then only the animation is uninterruptable. You are still blocking or FHRing if you get hit. And remember about FHR, it only occurs when a certain percentage of base life is dealt. EDC has so much higher damage than BotDz does, especially when you are only using 15% ds on BotDz, that even when you roll a low hit with ds you have a very high chance of forcing an FHR on the other zealot.

Say you have 2300 - 8300 dmg with botdz and 1800 - 7000 dmg with EDC (these are similar to what you show in the guide)

With botdz you have 15% ds, with EDC you have 81% chance of ds.

(8300-2300)/2 = 3000 + 2300 = 5300. 5300 * .17 pvp pen * .5 damage reduced = 450.5 average dmg * .15% deadly strike = 518 average pvp damage

(7000-1800)/2 = 2600 + 1800 = 4400 *.17pvp pen * .5 dmg red = 374 avg dmg * .81% ds = 677 average pvp damage

That's quite a bit of extra average damage in zeal duels. Assuming ~3500 life on average, that's around 7 hits to win on average with botdz and only 5 to win with edc on average.

And FHR plays into it like this:

If the attack deals more than
- 1/16 of the targets max HP, they have a 37.5% chance to go into fhr
- 1/8 of the targets max HP, they have a 75% chance to go into fhr
- 1/4 of the targets max HP, they have a 100% chance to go into fhr

When your FHR is lower than the speed at which you are being attacked, you open yourself to allowing multiple consecutive hits.

Let's say a paladin has 3900 life as the shaftstop setup in this guide does. 1/8 = .125 * 3900 = 487.5 = the amount of damage needed for a 75% chance to put opponent into FHR. Now remember, botdz only does 450.5 average damage before ds, which means 85% of your hits only have a 37.5% chance to make them go into FHR. But with EDC, you have an 81% chance to make them go into FHR 75% of the time.

So, in summary, either get more life, more damage, or more FHR if you want to exploit this or prevent it from happening. But now you know the mechanic behind what you are observing in game.

Quote (memnoch_thedevil2003 @ Sep 25 2011 10:43pm)

Very good point. It's been quite a while since I crunched any numbers or looked at how the mechanics work either, so not sure if this has changed, but DS stacks off of weapon but not on weapon. From what we understood back then, say you had DS on Ammy + Boots + Helm they would stack and give higher %, but if you added EDC it was like adding a second chance to cast DS at it's own % not stacking it with the other 3 sources for 1 higher % chance to cast DS.

Also CB always casts before DS, there is still a chance for DS to strike afterwards as well, but it can spawn as a normal attack instead. I've always wanted to test a clean DS/FHR build w/ EDC + .08 Gores instead of reg Gores to test this. A high defensive build w/ a 10% DS hat + gores, would give a clean only DS or normal attack, add in Fhr in charms to compensate and it could make for a pretty powerful build.

Of course a lot of this like I said is based on old principles of the game, and I'm not sure if things like the DS stack still apply or not.

Quote (Neko @ Sep 25 2011 10:51pm)

i didnt even know fhr works on zeal vs zeal o.o! kind of wierd lol.

Quote (Neko @ Sep 25 2011 05:51pm)

i didnt even know fhr works on zeal vs zeal o.o! kind of wierd lol.

Quote (Jeebus666 @ Sep 25 2011 06:38pm)

The fhr breakdown he did isn't specific to zeal v zeal, that's just how fhr works normally...

Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 25 2011 03:42pm)

Yep, it's just how FHR works in general. The main issue that people who play zealots will have with this information is that they don't understand that they actually go into FHR or block because their animation has been made uninterruptable. That means it looks like you are still zealing, but in reality only a small part of zeal is truly uninterruptable and anything that hits you outside of that window will put you into FHR or block, which ticks the correct number of frames on the server, but you don't see it client side.

Quote (Jeebus666 @ Sep 25 2011 03:38pm)

Deadly strike on highlords and EDC stack, deadly strike only works mutually exclusively to skills like critical strike from skills. While dual wielding tho, only the deadly strike of the weapon that is doing the hit is taken into consideration.



The fhr breakdown he did isn't specific to zeal v zeal, that's just how fhr works normally...

Quote (Neko @ Sep 25 2011 11:52pm)

its part, i dont get at all. ive always thought zeal is unterruptable but when you get hit outside of that window, you go straight into fhr mode like rarely though. it happends me a lot sometimes i wanted add fhr to do minor tests on it but mehh it's pointless cuz i have enough fhr from coa and dungos lol.

I figure I thought he was talking about zeal fhr breakdown.

Quote (Jeebus666 @ Sep 25 2011 04:05pm)

if you have coa and dungo's u need 2 fhr scs to hit the next bp, the 48 fhr bp is 5 frames tho, zeal has 4 attacks at 4 frames and the last at 8 frames so i dunno how much this will help.

The 86 fhr bp is 4 frames, this maybe useful but i dunno if its worth sacrificing the eq to get it....