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Oct 5 2014 08:28pm
Quote (FrozenWater @ Oct 5 2014 09:24pm)
Not sure on what type of medication it is, other than that it's Valdoxan (agomelatine).

Not in therapy, dr said id only need to consider that if I didn't get any better after my course of these. Especially because I don't have any obvious issues rooted deep into childhood or anger issues.


I forgot you already stated Valdoxan.
How do you like it?

Also I'd disagree with your doctor, I would never take anti-depressants without being in therapy.
Therapy + Medication is always the best solution to recovery.
Because you're not sure of any rooted issues that would be a good reason to go to therapy before hoping on meds.

This post was edited by S3th on Oct 5 2014 08:29pm
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Oct 5 2014 08:55pm
Yeah I don't really see a problem with it
Unfortunately I'm having a hard time predicting complete interactions.. mostly because the brain is just so much more complex than other bodily areas in terms of receptor distribution, differential effects, location on the post synaptic neuron itself, etc.

I can say, both are going to be largely inhibitory. Your antidepressant drug is melatonergic aka it activates melatonin receptors, mimicking that action. Of course cannabis is largely inhibitory. They've both, independently been found to increase neurogenesis, so that could possibly be augmented. I couldn't imagine it be negated tbh. Cannabis has anti-depressant effects on its own anyway, and I've heard MANY anecdotes of using cannabis with their SSRI or other antidepressant ameliorating symptoms to a greater degree.

Though cannabis is generally an antidepressant, euphoric, etc, in excess it can be purely negative in terms of its effect on depression. That's because one of the MAIN brain areas usually dysregulated in depressed patients is the anterior cingulate cortex.. if you were to smoke for literally years with a very heavy dose (5+ blunts a day), that area could shrink. If used intermittently and in smaller doses, it actually augments activation of that area, attributing part of its antidepressant effect, which also comes from its increase in neurogenesis.

Anotther aspect to keep in mind is the location of the receptors.. cannabinoid receptors are almost uniformly expressed on the presynaptic endings, whereas melatonin are mostly on postsynaptic neurons I believe, with some located on certain presynaptic regions. For that reason, I don't really feel too comfortable recommending something that hasn't been actually tested. You really never know until an actual study comes along with something this complex.
Sorry for disappointing this time haha. Plus I'm kind of out of it so I can't critically think right now.

Oh and btw, that bit about serotonin and depression is pretty much nonsense. Any sort of monoamine hypothesis is silly.

Really, in terms of the etiology of depression, it seems that it doesn't BEGIN out of some inbalance in neurotransmitters or some small brain region. It typically begins due to some type of low grade systemic inflammation or stress. There's just inherent genetic predispositions to how you handle the stress.. genetically predisposed to not handle stress well usually causes depression. Same for the inflammation.
It seems that AFTER the depression has begun is when the deleterious cascades occur, such as impaired neurogenesis, hippocampal atrophy, perturabations in certain brain regions, sometimes (not as often) shifts in neurotransmission, etc. That's when it becomes difficult to reverse and treat, but that takes some time.
That's where anti-depressants come in. SSRIs don't work due to increasing serotonin, they work after 3-4 weeks due to enhancing neurogenesis, synaptogensis, and overall neuronal survival and neurite outgrowth.
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Oct 5 2014 08:58pm
Quote (Balla @ Oct 5 2014 08:55pm)
Yeah I don't really see a problem with it
Unfortunately I'm having a hard time predicting complete interactions.. mostly because the brain is just so much more complex than other bodily areas in terms of receptor distribution, differential effects, location on the post synaptic neuron itself, etc.

I can say, both are going to be largely inhibitory. Your antidepressant drug is melatonergic aka it activates melatonin receptors, mimicking that action. Of course cannabis is largely inhibitory. They've both, independently been found to increase neurogenesis, so that could possibly be augmented. I couldn't imagine it be negated tbh. Cannabis has anti-depressant effects on its own anyway, and I've heard MANY anecdotes of using cannabis with their SSRI or other antidepressant ameliorating symptoms to a greater degree.

Though cannabis is generally an antidepressant, euphoric, etc, in excess it can be purely negative in terms of its effect on depression. That's because one of the MAIN brain areas usually dysregulated in depressed patients is the anterior cingulate cortex.. if you were to smoke for literally years with a very heavy dose (5+ blunts a day), that area could shrink. If used intermittently and in smaller doses, it actually augments activation of that area, attributing part of its antidepressant effect, which also comes from its increase in neurogenesis.

Anotther aspect to keep in mind is the location of the receptors.. cannabinoid receptors are almost uniformly expressed on the presynaptic endings, whereas melatonin are mostly on postsynaptic neurons I believe, with some located on certain presynaptic regions. For that reason, I don't really feel too comfortable recommending something that hasn't been actually tested. You really never know until an actual study comes along with something this complex.
Sorry for disappointing this time haha. Plus I'm kind of out of it so I can't critically think right now.

Oh and btw, that bit about serotonin and depression is pretty much nonsense. Any sort of monoamine hypothesis is silly.

Really, in terms of the etiology of depression, it seems that it doesn't BEGIN out of some inbalance in neurotransmitters or some small brain region. It typically begins due to some type of low grade systemic inflammation or stress. There's just inherent genetic predispositions to how you handle the stress.. genetically predisposed to not handle stress well usually causes depression. Same for the inflammation.
It seems that AFTER the depression has begun is when the deleterious cascades occur, such as impaired neurogenesis, hippocampal atrophy, perturabations in certain brain regions, sometimes (not as often) shifts in neurotransmission, etc. That's when it becomes difficult to reverse and treat, but that takes some time.
That's where anti-depressants come in. SSRIs don't work due to increasing serotonin, they work after 3-4 weeks due to enhancing neurogenesis, synaptogensis, and overall neuronal survival and neurite outgrowth.


tldr: i dont know, but probably nothing of importance
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Oct 5 2014 09:20pm
Quote (Clicquot @ Oct 5 2014 10:58pm)
tldr: i dont know, but probably nothing of importance


Basically
that's why I gave some insight into depression in general lol
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Oct 5 2014 09:46pm
Quote (Balla @ Oct 5 2014 10:55pm)
Yeah I don't really see a problem with it
Unfortunately I'm having a hard time predicting complete interactions.. mostly because the brain is just so much more complex than other bodily areas in terms of receptor distribution, differential effects, location on the post synaptic neuron itself, etc.

I can say, both are going to be largely inhibitory. Your antidepressant drug is melatonergic aka it activates melatonin receptors, mimicking that action. Of course cannabis is largely inhibitory. They've both, independently been found to increase neurogenesis, so that could possibly be augmented. I couldn't imagine it be negated tbh. Cannabis has anti-depressant effects on its own anyway, and I've heard MANY anecdotes of using cannabis with their SSRI or other antidepressant ameliorating symptoms to a greater degree.

Though cannabis is generally an antidepressant, euphoric, etc, in excess it can be purely negative in terms of its effect on depression. That's because one of the MAIN brain areas usually dysregulated in depressed patients is the anterior cingulate cortex.. if you were to smoke for literally years with a very heavy dose (5+ blunts a day), that area could shrink. If used intermittently and in smaller doses, it actually augments activation of that area, attributing part of its antidepressant effect, which also comes from its increase in neurogenesis.

Anotther aspect to keep in mind is the location of the receptors.. cannabinoid receptors are almost uniformly expressed on the presynaptic endings, whereas melatonin are mostly on postsynaptic neurons I believe, with some located on certain presynaptic regions. For that reason, I don't really feel too comfortable recommending something that hasn't been actually tested. You really never know until an actual study comes along with something this complex.
Sorry for disappointing this time haha. Plus I'm kind of out of it so I can't critically think right now.

Oh and btw, that bit about serotonin and depression is pretty much nonsense. Any sort of monoamine hypothesis is silly.

Really, in terms of the etiology of depression, it seems that it doesn't BEGIN out of some inbalance in neurotransmitters or some small brain region. It typically begins due to some type of low grade systemic inflammation or stress. There's just inherent genetic predispositions to how you handle the stress.. genetically predisposed to not handle stress well usually causes depression. Same for the inflammation.
It seems that AFTER the depression has begun is when the deleterious cascades occur, such as impaired neurogenesis, hippocampal atrophy, perturabations in certain brain regions, sometimes (not as often) shifts in neurotransmission, etc. That's when it becomes difficult to reverse and treat, but that takes some time.
That's where anti-depressants come in. SSRIs don't work due to increasing serotonin, they work after 3-4 weeks due to enhancing neurogenesis, synaptogensis, and overall neuronal survival and neurite outgrowth.



So if I just take an anti inflammatory, such as advil, my depression will lesson?
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Oct 5 2014 09:56pm
Quote (N3rd @ Oct 5 2014 10:46pm)
So if I just take an anti inflammatory, such as advil, my depression will lesson?


No.
I agree with some things Shane said like how a genetically predisposed on stress is important.
But on the others not so much.
I believe treatment needs to follow the path of neurogenesis rather than changing neurotransmitter levels IE SSRIs.
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Oct 5 2014 09:58pm
Quote (N3rd @ Oct 5 2014 11:46pm)
So if I just take an anti inflammatory, such as advil, my depression will lesson?


Not exactly

NSAIDs via inhibitig COX-2 also lead to memory deficits. Lol. Plus there's other problems associated with them.
They aren't really true antiinflammatory drugs anyway.. I mean, they inhibit prostaglandin signaling and prostaglandins are often antinflammatory anyway via signaling via cAMP/PKA/CREB.. that pathway in T lymphocytes generally impedes NF-kB nuclear binding and activation.. so.
True anti inflammatory agents such as glucocorticoids are one of the main ways by which stress causes depression though. They inhibit neurogenesis, cause hippocampal atrophy, etc
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Oct 5 2014 10:04pm
Quote (Balla @ Oct 5 2014 11:58pm)
Not exactly

NSAIDs via inhibitig COX-2 also lead to memory deficits. Lol. Plus there's other problems associated with them.
They aren't really true antiinflammatory drugs anyway.. I mean, they inhibit prostaglandin signaling and prostaglandins are often antinflammatory anyway via signaling via cAMP/PKA/CREB.. that pathway in T lymphocytes generally impedes NF-kB nuclear binding and activation.. so.
True anti inflammatory agents such as glucocorticoids are one of the main ways by which stress causes depression though. They inhibit neurogenesis, cause hippocampal atrophy, etc


Why do I feel happy and care less/ less stress, when I take my pre-workout C4? It's almost addicting. When I scoop it and the powder floats up like the dust (don't know the word) I even sniff it/breath it in through my nose.
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Oct 5 2014 10:09pm
Quote (S3th @ Oct 5 2014 11:56pm)
No.
I agree with some things Shane said like how a genetically predisposed on stress is important.
But on the others not so much.
I believe treatment needs to follow the path of neurogenesis rather than changing neurotransmitter levels IE SSRIs.


What do you not agree with? lol

Quote (N3rd @ Oct 6 2014 12:04am)
Why do I feel happy and care less/ less stress, when I take my pre-workout C4? It's almost addicting. When I scoop it and the powder floats up like the dust (don't know the word) I even sniff it/breath it in through my nose.


dunno
probably placebo
or just from feeling more awake & vigilant. That usually enhances mood. I know when I get tired/fatigued/lethargic/sleepy I get in a shitty mood. I'll drink some coffee or something and boom, mood up.
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Oct 5 2014 10:12pm
Quote (Balla @ Oct 6 2014 12:09am)
What do you not agree with? lol



dunno
probably placebo
or just from feeling more awake & vigilant. That usually enhances mood. I know when I get tired/fatigued/lethargic/sleepy I get in a shitty mood. I'll drink some coffee or something and boom, mood up.


Is whey protein a waste of money? If I can consume say 40-50 g protein without it per day? I weigh 175 pounds. If you think it would be beneficial, would you recommend MTS weigh? Supposedly it is the best tasting protein on the market.

http://www.tigerfitness.com/MTS-Machine-Whey-Protein-5lbs-p/mtswhey.htm

This post was edited by N3rd on Oct 5 2014 10:14pm
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