First off i'd like to wish everybody happy holydays.

As for the topic it self - every sizeable argument has a sizeable story attached to it so if you are just hovering over the usual BS, you can skip this thread since it will require some minutes of your time to read out, consider and give an opinion based on what you think.

So the Story begins when i recieved a message from a person in the forums by the name of "Lajo" who is a trade mediator by tag. The only editing of the text is the removed quotes since they got huge and ugly.

Lajo-

Topic:

Quote (Lajo @ Fri, Dec 28 2007, 02:24am)

Your signature and profile violate the Trade Rules.

The violated rule is:
"Do not offer services without a trusted tag. (includes in profiles, signature, trade threads, and anywhere else. Also if the service is free)"
Trade Rules are located here: http://www.d2jsp.org/index.php?a=wiki&s=6&p=traderules

Please remove the service related parts of your signature and profile, before further action will take place:

remove from your signature - "FOR SWIFT LVL/RUSH SERVICES WITH PROPPER ETIQUETTE - EU SC L.
)->CLICK HERE<-("
remove from your profile - "your whole profile actually"
Best regards.
p. s. do not hesitate to send me a PM if you have any question regarding signatures/avatars/profiles.

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Comment - So far so good i was breaking the rules fair and sqaire so dont think this thread is a cry for changing the rules.
And as far as fact is concerned i was asked quite courteous to resolve my error. So we continue with the story to give you the
core of the argument...

For the protocol i was offering a service.
And then after i changed my profile to what you can see now in it wich is posted in it ONLY for resolving this argument.
I replied:
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Me - Hope you like my new profile...

After he read it he replied:
Lajo- I'm disappointed, you are an intelligent guy and you try to give me this bullshit

Me -I am disapointed at JSP too , but we all do what we can dont we. So anybody with lots of gold, posts and time spent should have more rights to do someting ANYBODY can.
Everybody should take their own responsibilities not make some rules claiming to protect you wich only actualy does protect the interests of rich people. So bullshit is a point of perspective.
And no worries i intend to keep my self updated to any rules (; As you can see im not offering anything. And taking action againts me on current rules will show a number of people that im right in my claims for monopoly (;

Lajo- Well I don't even want to start discussing about the rules since it is not my task as a member++, instead it is to enforce them and you changing the wording and doing some cosmetics doe snot change anything really
please remove everything that implies you do those services
you can however list your jobs done: whom you leveled to which level, without the price and the time it took, just the list, this is the only thing we allow anything else is pretty much an advertisement of the service.

Me -Still The Rule says "OFFERING" is forbidden. I'm offering nothing. If you give me a penalty you would brake your own rules and that would be quite rediculous. If the rule gets updated ill update in a second ...

Lajo- any advertisment is an implicit offer, if you don't want them to contact you , you would not advertise it
as I said, the wording is indifferent as long as the content makes it an advertisment
whether you "offer" it or you "would offer it if you were allowed" or any such thing ppl try to bullshit me does not make it no advertisment/

Me - Still the rules are supposed to be rules by the letter, not judgement calls by people are they now? Or this is just another site that empowered people do what they want regardless of what THEIR OWN rules say ?

Lajo- how can you interpret this (by the letter) otherwise as you are not allowed to advertise your service in your profile: Do not offer services without a trusted tag. (includes in profiles, signature, trade threads, and anywhere else. Also if the service is free).
just remove it, otherwise we will have to

Me - Well, as i read it more than once there is nothing mentioned about advertising. Or i need to copy paste it to you.

"Service Rules:
Do not offer services without a trusted tag. (includes in profiles, signature, trade threads, and anywhere else. Also if the service is free).
Do not leave items on an account that will be serviced.
Guilds may offer services as long as the guild leader (with a trusted tag) creates topic and knows he/she is responsible for any disputes.
If someone posts they are in search of a service, anyone may respond."

You see anything about advertising or mentioning or talking about? Its says offer. I do not "OFFER" anything currently.

Any way, do what you want exercise your force on me like you can, and ill do what i can in making it reach everybody with talks of should.

Surely we all know might makes right but who knows in the end.

Lajo- what is the difference between offering your service and advertising it

Me - If there wasnt any differance there would have been only 1 word for it not two different concepts. Telling someone someting is good isnt realy "i offer you to buy this" is it now ? And telling someone, "milk may be cheap at the corner" is not = "go buy milk at the corner" or "i sell milk at the corner". You should be intelligent enough to know the diferance.

Lajo- this is nothing else than a fucking lawyers' game, man...

if we accept your statement, "I would offer my service if I was allowed, but I don't do it because I'm not allowed" is not offering the service

get real...

and while we are discussing it, could please remove the advertisment from your profile and sig, it's better than we removing it

Me - It is bullshit because you want to label it that way. And its not because people dont allow bullshit at serious matters and in fact
Joe MAY have killed John CAN NOT be equal to Joe killed John.

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Comment :
Obviously mr. Lajo was losing grip on his nerv since he realised he cant allow him self to claim to be stupid enough not to recognize the differance of concepts driving policies of the entire world.
And thus losing that argument he made a threat - "and while we are discussing it, could please remove the advertisment from your profile and sig, it's better than we removing it"

In other words "regardless if im right or wrong i got the authority here and any other thing is meaningless so comply or you will suffer for it.

And i even want to analyse the threat + the word "fucking" by a person having him self realted to someting called "Men of honor" and worse being a representative of staff.

Further i messaged him that for convinience we can continue this online over irc, icq or skype - and we did in irc of wich you can see the chat log below whereone of us (3 brothers) is known as "SK_RaZoR"...
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[20:30:19] <Lajo> hi
[20:30:23] <SK_RaZoR> hey
[20:30:36] <SK_RaZoR> Happy holydays ...
[20:30:39] <SK_RaZoR> and so
[20:30:42] <Lajo> ty, same to you
[20:30:52] <SK_RaZoR> Joe may have killed John is = Joe killed John (: ?
[20:31:03] <SK_RaZoR> or what (;

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Comment;
And thus we started again - Do you as Lajo think that = Joe may/would have killed John is = Joe killed John ???
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[20:31:46] <SK_RaZoR> Now real bullshit is when i say ill sue jsp owner for harrasment by his staff
[20:31:47] <Lajo> the I'm looking at is whether what you have there makes people think "oh this guy does a service, let's PM him"
[20:31:55] <Lajo> you can't
[20:32:09] <Lajo> you accept that we can do anything we want basically
[20:32:21] <SK_RaZoR> did i say i do or i will (:
[20:32:25] <SK_RaZoR> hahah
[20:32:39] <Lajo> but you see oyu made me think you do

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Comment;
And heres the real charm repeating it self - I MADE HIM THINK. Sound as if i put a gun to his head and gave him no choice but to think that
As if he has no control of his OWN mind.
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[20:32:39] <SK_RaZoR> you have quite funny concepts (:
[20:32:46] <Lajo> same as with your ads
[20:32:49] <SK_RaZoR> so what
[20:32:52] <SK_RaZoR> thats YOUR choice
[20:32:52] <Lajo> no actually
[20:32:54] <SK_RaZoR> to think that way
[20:33:03] <Lajo> there is what you say literally and there is what is behind
[20:33:05] <SK_RaZoR> i didnt force you or tell you to
[20:33:13] <SK_RaZoR> so
[20:33:29] <Lajo> or do you think there is only the literal meaning of words/phrases.sentences?
[20:33:31] <SK_RaZoR> showing you a gun isnt exatcly telling you to blow your bnrains out
[20:33:43] <Lajo> and?
[20:33:44] <SK_RaZoR> its your own personal choice
[20:33:50] <SK_RaZoR> i cant be blamed for that
[20:34:06] <Lajo> OK, show a gun to a policeman and see what happens

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Comment;
Seamingly he lost the point. And i didnt see a need to make an argument out of it. But EVEN if you do "SHOW"
a gun to a policeman he would suffer the consiquences if he reacted stupid upon it.
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[20:34:13] <SK_RaZoR> same as any manufacturer cant be blamed that some drunk idiot jumped off a bridge with a car
[20:34:28] <Lajo> you know, there is a thing called common sense
[20:34:39] <SK_RaZoR> so.
[20:34:46] <SK_RaZoR> common sense is to have descent rules
[20:35:04] <SK_RaZoR> not 3 sentances that leave you exercising force at will
[20:35:07] <Lajo> if I see "I' doing service, but don't PM me, I can't offer them" it's common sense that you offer it
[20:35:10] <SK_RaZoR> it just looks sloppy
[20:35:18] <Lajo> ok but thats another topic

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Comment:
AND ALAS The representitive or the Site staff agrees with me that the rules are sloppy but still persists on the argument.
And see how fast he desmises it with no debate. "ok but thats another topic"
In other words "yes you are right but we wont be talking about that"
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[20:35:31] <Lajo> we are talking about your profile fitting the CURRENT rules or not
[20:35:35] <SK_RaZoR> never the less its related (:
[20:35:39] <Lajo> sure
[20:35:48] <SK_RaZoR> well it is fitting
[20:35:51] <SK_RaZoR> ask 10 people
[20:35:54] <SK_RaZoR> some will agree some wont
[20:35:58] <SK_RaZoR> just because there is no clarity
[20:36:06] <Lajo> no because you advertise it without a TT
[20:36:10] <SK_RaZoR> give clarity to the rules and i will obey(;
[20:36:39] <Lajo> look we cant include every possible wording.., advertisment - offering at least their meanings are very close

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Comment:
So here he claims that the site crew is NOT able to produce rules that fit his opinion on things.
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[20:36:51] <SK_RaZoR> but not the same are they
[20:36:57] <SK_RaZoR> and you dont need to incluse every word
[20:37:17] <SK_RaZoR> you just need to add 1-5 sentances (;
[20:37:25] <SK_RaZoR> not very long too
[20:37:57] <SK_RaZoR> And any way im sorry to say that i will use your words to undermine JSP for its policy
[20:38:03] <Lajo> look even laws are not 100% clear... that's why we have lawyers who interpret them
[20:38:22] <Lajo> look on me as a d2jsp lawyer who interprets rules for you if you have problems with the m:D
[20:38:43] <SK_RaZoR> Laws are made by a public service
[20:38:53] <Lajo> so?
[20:38:54] <SK_RaZoR> I want to see you shake out of a good contract
[20:39:03] <SK_RaZoR> if its the same thing (;
[20:39:14] <SK_RaZoR> Judging by your perspectives it is
[20:39:17] <Lajo> ... you accept the rules when you join d2jsp
[20:39:24] <SK_RaZoR> yes
[20:39:26] <SK_RaZoR> i do
[20:39:27] <SK_RaZoR> I DONT OFFER
[20:39:28] <SK_RaZoR> (:
[20:39:32] <Lajo> ...
[20:39:41] <Lajo> is there anything else?
[20:40:05] <SK_RaZoR> and the other rules not related to services ofc
[20:40:07] <SK_RaZoR> (:
[20:43:22] <Lajo> to offer: to make available : afford; especially : to place (merchandise) on sale
[20:43:30] <Lajo> to advertise: to call public attention to especially by emphasizing desirable qualities so as to arouse a desire to buy or patronize : promote
[20:43:55] <SK_RaZoR> not exactly the same is it (:
[20:43:57] <Lajo> these are from mwrriam webster online
[20:44:01] <Lajo> they look quite similar to me
[20:44:13] <Lajo> no but very similar
[20:44:21] <SK_RaZoR> well a girl may look similar to your but you dont do her for it do you ?
[20:45:21] <SK_RaZoR> neither someone gets convicted for having a similar gun to the crime scene
[20:45:31] <SK_RaZoR> however interprative the law is
[20:45:49] <Lajo> they mean the same, that is
[20:46:10] <Lajo> you are not allowed to draw ppls attention to your service unless you have a trusted tag
[20:46:21] <Lajo> you can call this advertising, offering or whatever you want

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Comment:
And by some miracle here he finds quite propper words to fill the gap he described just a few minutes ago as NOT posible.
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[20:46:23] <SK_RaZoR> where do you see any such thing in rules (:
[20:46:33] <SK_RaZoR> you just made it up (:
[20:46:35] <Lajo> this is what is meant by offering
[20:46:43] <SK_RaZoR> you cant say that
[20:46:51] <SK_RaZoR> you didnt make the rules as you sayd you self
[20:46:58] <SK_RaZoR> its not your say
[20:47:23] <Lajo> but I'm part of the mod team which enforces the rules
[20:47:31] <Lajo> so you better accept my interpretation

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Comment:
So Might makes Right regardless of common sense or fact.
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[20:47:42] <SK_RaZoR> wich doesnt change the fact its not your call
[20:47:51] <SK_RaZoR> you enforce what you have not what you want
[20:48:35] <Lajo> I enforce what we have, based on hour interpretation and we do not care about yours, sorry to be nazis
[20:48:56] <Lajo> ofc you can make a site suggestion to make the rules fit your needs
[20:49:22] <SK_RaZoR> Be as it may, is it stated anywhere that you can or can not do that (;?
[20:49:39] <Lajo> do what
[20:49:46] <SK_RaZoR> interpret
[20:50:10] <Lajo> you interpret when you read
[20:50:18] <Lajo> you do it all the time
[20:50:35] <Lajo> look
[20:50:39] <Lajo> an example
[20:50:56] <Lajo> I PM somebody to change his sig because it's 500 KB and the limit is 70
[20:51:31] <Lajo> he can say "I'm sorry I don't accept it, I interpret 500 KB in xxysy number sytem which is 50 KB in decimal"
[20:52:07] <Lajo> he can ofc do so but it does not change the fact that 500 is meant in decimal
[20:52:39] <Lajo> similarly, offering includes advertising in the profile, whether you agree or not
[20:52:54] <SK_RaZoR> Well you and i know that we can debate this for a very long time ...
[20:52:55] <SK_RaZoR> thus
[20:53:00] <SK_RaZoR> ill do what i told you
[20:53:18] <SK_RaZoR> make my point at the forums use your words to support it and see what the majority of people think
[20:53:44] <Lajo> apart from the thing that this is a private conversation which you cannot publish without my consent
[20:54:03] <SK_RaZoR> wich is a topic of interpretation and definition (;
[20:54:04] <Lajo> but do it
[20:54:10] <SK_RaZoR> as you sayd
[20:54:15] <Lajo> no problem, do it

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FINAL COMMENT:

And so our little story ends here and its time for you to make up your mind and give an opinion on it.
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Looks to me like you were offering services in your signature/profile.

What is actually in question here? It's not allowed without a Trusted Tag.

Well if you bothered to read you wouldnt give a useless comment would you now...
You can see my current profile. And the ENTIRE archive of debate.

So i find all the needed material to gather an opinion. Can't help it if you fail to do so.

This post was edited by Polymorpher on Dec 29 2007 10:31am

I did read it. Sounds to me like you're one of those people who cry and bitch and try to split hairs.

Accept it, and move on. Be an upstanding member and answer ISO's. WOW.

I am here to resolve a debate between two people and two points of view not drop it and move on. If you drop your beliefs when it comes to finding the truth, closure or both - thats your own problem...

This post was edited by Polymorpher on Dec 29 2007 10:35am

Wording is irrelevant. You can't offer services without a trusted tag.

This has nothing to do with site suggestion, but if you want to discuss the rules pls send me a PM.

Consider this topic closed.

This post was edited by Balakai on Dec 29 2007 10:41am

The only truth here is, that you was aware of trade rule "do not offer services without tt".
And yet you did broke that rule.
End of story.
What closure do you looking for? Maybe you want to talk with Paparick about it, he is pro with "closures"

tl;dr

Why should you be allowed to do something many others have tried to do and not been allowed? The rules are to protect people, not be a monopoly, as you think. By changing your profile the way you did, and making this post, you are just being the typical defiant person arguing over an internet site about injustice.

If your services are as great as you advertise them, then word of mouth is good enough, and a list of finished jobs.