d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > Entertainment Room > Movies & TV Shows > Woody Allen
Prev17891011Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 29,171
Joined: Sep 22 2007
Gold: 0.00
Mar 23 2012 08:59pm
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Mar 23 2012 06:29pm)
Woody Allen absolutely loves this theme of an innocent character or characters who, by some set of circumstances, commit an irredeemable crime in order to remedy their predicament. Accordingly, the first half or so of the film sets up the characters and reveals what the predicament is that leads them to commit the crime and the second half deals with them brooding over it and eventually being destroyed by it. I've seen this done 3 times (including this film) in his filmography and it seems to end the same way. Hence, I find that this film ultimately suffers by an inevitable predictability and has to suffer some criticism simply on the grounds that is is grossly unoriginal.


Actually, all three films are reworkings of the same themes, and one of the key differences between them is their denouements. Crimes and Misdemeanors ends with the killer coming to terms with his crime and getting away scot-free. He realizes that he can't be linked to the murder and he chooses to not dwell on it any longer. Match Point's killer gets away because the crime was attributed to another criminal, though he remains guilt-ridden. The brothers in Cassandra's Dream are doomed from the start, as you pointed out, and they end up dead, unlike the killers in the other films. Judah Rosenthal gets away with his crime because he believes his actions were morally justified. The killer in Match Point gets away by mere chance, while the brothers in Cassandra's Dream are ruined by guilt and fate. Also, originality is overrated.

Quote (Kamahl16 @ Mar 23 2012 06:29pm)
This aside, I did really love this movie as a mood piece. He has Phillip Glass to the music for the film, to whom I am indifferent, rather than fall back on old compositions; mainly jazz. I thought his music worked pretty well in this one but I enjoy the charm of using old school jazz samples over something like this. The acting was pretty good by the male leads in this one and I thought it was a crisp film that was nice to look at.


I thought the music was too obtrusive, though I agree the acting was quite good.

Quote (Kamahl16 @ Mar 23 2012 06:29pm)
I felt the Bonnie and Clyde reference at the beginning was just weak. It was foreshadowing to the point where the character's could have simply spelled out how the movie would end. It was an appropriate reference, however, because you had two sets of circumstances (Bonnie and Clyde and this movie) where the characters in question go past the point of no return for no good reason, being that they have a wonderful life as it is. As a result I find it difficult to completely sympathize with the two brothers because they had a lot going for them before they entered into "no man's land" and should have realized what their uncle was asking of them and dismissed him as a selfish criminal.


They were both strapped for cash, and, considering how selfish and immature they are, it's definitely conceivable that they would go through with the deed.

If the film has any major demerits preventing it from reaching true greatness, predictability may be it; however, you'd be wrong to ignore all the many brilliant moments this film offers. The screenplay is undeniably a great one, and what's more amazing is how quickly and fluidly it moves along; it's truly a marvel of poetic brevity. While certainly derivative, in the end, it sets itself apart as a unique work of art - one that is deeply in need of recognition. I'd rank it as one of his 10 best films, and his best film overall in 20 years.
Member
Posts: 58,281
Joined: Jul 10 2006
Gold: 2,900.49
Mar 24 2012 12:46am
Poetic brevity? You give this film far more credit that it deserves.

Just finished Scoop, which was a very enjoyable movie. I liked the premise, although it nothing groundbreaking, thought Hugh Grant's performance was incredible and thought the ending was hilarious (the part with Allen, not the resolution of the plot). Allen's character was very funny and he made me laugh on multiple occasions.

4.0 // 5.0

EDIT -- I could be a lot more critical of this one and rate it much lower, I think, but I think it is most valuable as merely an enjoyable film rather than a thought provoking one like some of Allen's other movies.


This post was edited by Kamahl16 on Mar 24 2012 12:48am
Member
Posts: 28,849
Joined: Mar 8 2010
Gold: 2,570.91
Mar 24 2012 05:26am
Quote (Individuality @ Mar 24 2012 03:59am)
Actually, all three films are reworkings of the same themes, and one of the key differences between them is their denouements. Crimes and Misdemeanors ends with the killer coming to terms with his crime and getting away scot-free. He realizes that he can't be linked to the murder and he chooses to not dwell on it any longer. Match Point's killer gets away because the crime was attributed to another criminal, though he remains guilt-ridden. The brothers in Cassandra's Dream are doomed from the start, as you pointed out, and they end up dead, unlike the killers in the other films. Judah Rosenthal gets away with his crime because he believes his actions were morally justified. The killer in Match Point gets away by mere chance, while the brothers in Cassandra's Dream are ruined by guilt and fate. Also, originality is overrated.



I thought the music was too obtrusive, though I agree the acting was quite good.



They were both strapped for cash, and, considering how selfish and immature they are, it's definitely conceivable that they would go through with the deed.

If the film has any major demerits preventing it from reaching true greatness, predictability may be it; however, you'd be wrong to ignore all the many brilliant moments this film offers. The screenplay is undeniably a great one, and what's more amazing is how quickly and fluidly it moves along; it's truly a marvel of poetic brevity. While certainly derivative, in the end, it sets itself apart as a unique work of art - one that is deeply in need of recognition. I'd rank it as one of his 10 best films, and his best film overall in 20 years.


leaving the bolded part aside, I totally agree
Member
Posts: 29,171
Joined: Sep 22 2007
Gold: 0.00
Mar 24 2012 09:22am
Quote (Kamahl16 @ Mar 24 2012 12:46am)
Poetic brevity? You give this film far more credit that it deserves.


He establishes character traits within minutes and wastes no scenes in the film. The opening scenes showing the brothers as carefree and naive have poetic resonance that would be lost in the hands of a lesser director. In fact, the film's pacing allows it to sustain tension throughout, even if one is already aware of the direction it's going. Upon closer inspection, even the "little" scenes have reason for existing beyond merely pushing the plot forward, and such details are lost when the viewer is incapable of spotting them. That so many critics panned this film while praising the far more polished Match Point as a "return to form" should tell you something about the state of art criticism today.

Quote (zarkadon @ Mar 24 2012 05:26am)
leaving the bolded part aside, I totally agree


What would you say his best film from that period is?

Also, it's Hugh Jackman, not Hugh Grant. :D

This post was edited by Individuality on Mar 24 2012 09:23am
Member
Posts: 28,849
Joined: Mar 8 2010
Gold: 2,570.91
Mar 24 2012 09:44am
Quote (Individuality @ Mar 24 2012 04:22pm)
What would you say his best film from that period is?

Also, it's Hugh Jackman, not Hugh Grant. :D


I think Whatever Works is the one I enjoyed the most from that period. I also wouldn't rate Cassandra's Dream above Scoop, which I believe is pretty underrated , imo both of these are at the same level. The rest of his movies from the last two decades are below these 3 imo, although I've only seen about 3/4 of his work during these last 20 years.

This post was edited by zarkadon on Mar 24 2012 09:45am
Member
Posts: 29,171
Joined: Sep 22 2007
Gold: 0.00
Mar 24 2012 10:12am
Quote (zarkadon @ Mar 24 2012 09:44am)
I think Whatever Works is the one I enjoyed the most from that period. I also wouldn't rate Cassandra's Dream above Scoop, which I believe is pretty underrated , imo both of these are at the same level. The rest of his movies from the last two decades are below these 3 imo, although I've only seen about 3/4 of his work during these last 20 years.


I think Whatever Works is a good, solid flick that really takes a turn for the worst when Melody's parents show up. The characters are all too stereotypical for it to have any grand implications, and it falls prey to too many cliches in the second half. Larry David is quite good in his role, but the acting as a whole is hit and miss. Overall, I'd consider it one of his funniest films, but artistically, it's third tier Allen at best.

Scoop is a good piece of fluff, and a film I enjoy very much, but it lacks the depth of films like Match Point and Sweet and Lowdown. The performances are uniformly good here.

Personally, I would rank Manhattan Murder Mystery, Celebrity, Sweet and Lowdown, Match Point and Cassandra's Dream as his best works of the last 20 years. Mighty Aphrodite, Everyone Says I Love You, Small Time Crooks, The Curse of the Jade Scorpion, Hollywood Ending, Anything Else and You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger occupy the lower tier, while everything else ranges from solid to good.

This post was edited by Individuality on Mar 24 2012 10:31am
Member
Posts: 14,209
Joined: Feb 15 2006
Gold: 53,816.00
Mar 24 2012 10:39am
tl:dr
:banana:
Member
Posts: 58,281
Joined: Jul 10 2006
Gold: 2,900.49
Mar 24 2012 10:50am
Quote
He establishes character traits within minutes and wastes no scenes in the film. The opening scenes showing the brothers as carefree and naive have poetic resonance that would be lost in the hands of a lesser director. In fact, the film's pacing allows it to sustain tension throughout, even if one is already aware of the direction it's going. Upon closer inspection, even the "little" scenes have reason for existing beyond merely pushing the plot forward, and such details are lost when the viewer is incapable of spotting them. That so many critics panned this film while praising the far more polished Match Point as a "return to form" should tell you something about the state of art criticism today.


To be fair, I consider this one and Match Point to be about the same quality. This one gets more credit because I think the way the brothers handled the crime they had to commit was far more realistic than the comfortable manner by which the character in Match Point did. The way the character in Match Point had no qualms gunning down an innocent woman in order to complete his action shows he is really a cruel, cold hearted beast which wasn't really established. It also seemed up its own ass in pretension and suffered the same fate Rope did, which is to argue the most infantile philosophic and moral dilemmas.

Quote
Also, it's Hugh Jackman, not Hugh Grant.


That's right, my bad. His performance was top notch.

In my opinion Deconstructing Harry was his best in the last twenty years, myself.


Quote (7high @ Mar 24 2012 04:39pm)
tl:dr
:banana:



Shame.

This post was edited by Kamahl16 on Mar 24 2012 10:50am
Member
Posts: 28,849
Joined: Mar 8 2010
Gold: 2,570.91
Mar 24 2012 05:51pm
Quote (Individuality @ Mar 24 2012 05:12pm)
I think Whatever Works is a good, solid flick that really takes a turn for the worst when Melody's parents show up. The characters are all too stereotypical for it to have any grand implications, and it falls prey to too many cliches in the second half. Larry David is quite good in his role, but the acting as a whole is hit and miss. Overall, I'd consider it one of his funniest films, but artistically, it's third tier Allen at best.

Scoop is a good piece of fluff, and a film I enjoy very much, but it lacks the depth of films like Match Point and Sweet and Lowdown. The performances are uniformly good here.

Personally, I would rank Manhattan Murder Mystery, Celebrity, Sweet and Lowdown, Match Point and Cassandra's Dream as his best works of the last 20 years. Mighty Aphrodite, Everyone Says I Love You, Small Time Crooks, The Curse of the Jade Scorpion, Hollywood Ending, Anything Else and You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger occupy the lower tier, while everything else ranges from solid to good.


hmmm, I see what you mean; films can be enjoyable but lack artistic value. I really enjoyed Whatever Works because I love it when Woody Allen goes philosophical/satirical. I think it's his best philosphical/satirical films of the last 2 decades (but like I said, I haven't seen them all... out of the ones you listed I havent seen Manhattan Murder Mystery or Sweet And Lowdown), but artisticaly Match Point and Cassandra's Dream ae superior.
Member
Posts: 58,281
Joined: Jul 10 2006
Gold: 2,900.49
Apr 7 2012 02:34am
Alright, Melinda and Melinda.

The movie has two really good things going for it, one being that it posses an interesting question, which is whether or not life is comic or tragic, and the other is a relentlessly optimistic view towards life even considering all the suffering, depression, etc. that it entails. I thought a lot of the characters were very charming but in the end they were all just so damned one dimensional and melodramatic. I don't understand why Woody Allen doesn't just act in the movie personally if he writes a character that he is perfect for. Will Ferrell's character was Woody Allen, plain and simple, from the movements his character made to lines of dialogue written for him right down to the subtleties of his movements he is merely Woody, which is probably why he was my favorite character in the movie.

The rest of the cast are writers, musicians, artists, and in short the characters you'd expect from a Woody Allen movie. Maybe I'm nitpicking here but he has such a general theme on this one I do not understand why he always has to have characters with these artsy kinds of backgrounds. Maybe it makes him feel comfortable or maybe he likes the fact it gives it a more "sophisticated" feel to have highly educated characters in all of his movies, who knows.

The movie really goes downhill, for me, when they take the question posed at the top of the film and apply it to the cookie cutter romantic escapades done so many times before. Again, does Woody do this because it makes him feel comfortable or is he so lazy he doesn't want to take a risk and focus on something besides upper class romantic entanglements in New York City?

In the end only Woody knows for sure but for me this movie is just so damned basic I have a hard time ranking it very highly; particularly versus his other movies of higher quality (even ones that deal with these very issues, more or less). The way the narrative is shown to the viewer is cool, in that it goes back and forth between the two viewpoints (comic versus tragic), but this is a straight B film.

Go Back To Movies & TV Shows Topic List
Prev17891011Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll