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Oct 21 2010 11:55am
who actually believes in god and has scientific proof to back it up?


Christianity or any religion in this case is basically a Pseudoscience

not looking to flame, looking for a serious discussion
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Oct 21 2010 12:07pm
It depends on your believes - if you have different beliefs then you hold completely different paradigms of what proofs are. For instance, I'm a Christian and believe that both general and divine revelations are proof that God exists. (A non-believer doesn't even believe in revelation.)

And here is something I posted in a thread about Creation vs. Evolution:

What created the atoms that collided and caused the Big Bang? Was it just an infinite number of Big Bangs, something smaller than an atom colliding to create an atom until we are where we are now? No.

One might then say, well what created God? Seeing as atoms are tangible, it is possible to suggest that God created them. Seeing as God is intangible in a relative sense, it is possible to suggest that nothing created him. If one is going down the road that existence had to come from somewhere, such as the Big Bang, he must be able to explain how something came from nothing. One who believes in God does not need to explain how something came from nothing because God always was and always is. Even then, it is confusing and something that cannot be explained by logic - it requires faith.
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Oct 21 2010 03:36pm
Quote (drdemon @ Oct 21 2010 01:55pm)
who actually believes in god and has scientific proof to back it up?


Christianity or any religion in this case is basically a Pseudoscience

not looking to flame, looking for a serious discussion


what would you do, or what could you possibly do with that proof if you were ever to find it?
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Oct 21 2010 03:54pm
"For much of the unexplained, there is God"

We can't even PROVE our own existence, how are we supposed to prove something like God?

It's called faith for a reason.

Same reason you believe in the Big Bang, which can't even be proven. It just makes sense.
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Oct 21 2010 07:35pm
Quote (ZeroCc @ 21 Oct 2010 17:54)
"For much of the unexplained, there is God"

We can't even PROVE our own existence, how are we supposed to prove something like God?

It's called faith for a reason.

Same reason you believe in the Big Bang, which can't even be proven. It just makes sense.


Nothing makes sense... Either a timeless being who created evrything (Yeh right...) or an explosion thats creted evrything from nothing... As I said nothing makes sense. We just haev to suck it up until we die.
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Oct 22 2010 12:20am
Quote (ZeroCc @ Oct 21 2010 05:54pm)
Same reason you believe in the Big Bang, which can't even be proven. It just makes sense.


There is scientific evidence of the Big Bang's occurrence. Read about the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. Measured data fits so incredibly well with the theoretical curve that would be expected if there were a Big Bang that the error bars are fully obscured by just drawing the theoretical curve over the data points:



I can't think of any other case where theory and experimental measurements agree so closely as they do here.
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Oct 22 2010 11:32am
There is WAY more evidence against the Big Bang than there is for it. It is a theory filled with so many holes it is unbelievable that people still support it. Yet, people like you and many scientists continue to believe it because it, "makes sense."


What is the evidence against the Big Bang?
Light Element Abundances predict contradictory densities
The Big bang theory predicts the density of ordinary matter in the universe from the abundance of a few light elements. Yet the density predictions made on the basis of the abundance of deuterium, lithium-7 and helium-4 are in contradiction with each other, and these predictions have grown worse with each new observation. The chance that the theory is right is now less than one in one hundred trillion.

Large-scale Voids are too old
The Big bang theory predicts that no object in the universe can be older than the Big Bang. Yet the large-scale voids observed in the distortion of galaxies cannot have been formed in the time since the Big Bang, without resulting in velocities of present-day galaxies far in excess of those observed. Given the observed velocities, these voids must have taken at least 70 billion years to form, five times as long as the theorized time since the Big Bang.
Surface brightness is constant
One of the striking predictions of the Big Bang theory is that ordinary geometry does not work at great distances. In the space around us, on earth, in the solar system and the galaxy (non-expanding space), as objects get farther away, they get smaller. Since distance correlates with redshift, the product of angular size and red shift, qz, is constant. Similarly the surface brightness of objects, brightness per unit area on the sky, measured as photons per second, is a constant with increasing distance for similar objects.

In contrast, the Big Bang expanding universe predicts that surface brightness, defined as above, decreases as (z+1)-3. More distant objects actually should appear bigger. But observations show that in fact the surface brightness of galaxies up to a redshift of 6 are exactly constant, as predicted by a non-expanding universe and in sharp contradiction to the Big Bang. Efforts to explain this difference by evolution--early galaxies are different than those today-- lead to predictions of galaxies that are impossibly bright and dense.”

Too many Hypothetical Entities--Dark Matter and Energy, Inflation
The Big Bang theory requires THREE hypothetical entities--the inflation field, non-baryonic (dark) matter and the dark energy field to overcome gross contradictions of theory and observation. Yet no evidence has ever confirmed the existence of any of these three hypothetical entities. Indeed, there have been many lab experiments over the past 23 years that have searched for non-baryonic matter, all with negative results. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the Big Bang does not predict an isotropic (smooth) cosmic background radiation(CBR). Without non-baryonic matter, the predictions of the theory for the density of matter are in self-contradiction, inflation predicting a density 20 times larger than any predicted by light element abundances (which are in contradiction with each other). Without dark energy, the theory predicts an age of the universe younger than that of many stars in our galaxy.

No room for dark matter
While the Big bang theory requires that there is far more dark matter than ordinary matter, discoveries of white dwarfs(dead stars) in the halo of our galaxy and of warm plasma clouds in the local group of galaxies show that there is enough ordinary matter to account for the gravitational effects observed, so there is no room for extra dark matter.

No Conservation of Energy
The hypothetical dark energy field violates one of the best-tested laws of physics--the conservation of energy and matter, since the field produces energy at a titanic rate out of nothingness. To toss aside this basic conservation law in order to preserve the Big Bang theory is something that would never be acceptable in any other field of physics.

Alignment of CBR with the Local Supercluster
The largest angular scale components of the fluctuations(anisotropy) of the CBR are not random, but have a strong preferred orientation in the sky. The quadrupole and octopole power is concentrated on a ring around the sky and are essentially zero along a preferred axis. The direction of this axis is identical with the direction toward the Virgo cluster and lies exactly along the axis of the Local Supercluster filament of which our Galaxy is a part. This observation completely contradicts the Big Bang assumption that the CBR originated far from the local Supercluster and is, on the largest scale, isotropic without a preferred direction in space. (Big Bang theorists have implausibly labeled the coincidence of the preferred CBR direction and the direction to Virgo to be mere accident and have scrambled to produce new ad-hoc assumptions, including that the universe is finite only in one spatial direction, an assumption that entirely contradicts the assumptions of the inflationary model of the Big Bang, the only model generally accepted by Big Bang supporters.)
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Oct 22 2010 02:44pm
so you all believe the crazy story's from the bible and believe they actually happened? because of faith or your "Beliefs"???? interesting..........

you think a man in the sky made everything? come on doesn't it sound a little crazy?

and i never said anything about the big bang theory being better, but at least it makes sense and doesn't sound like a crazy story

This post was edited by drdemon on Oct 22 2010 02:47pm
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Oct 22 2010 02:55pm
Quote (ZeroCc @ Oct 22 2010 05:32pm)
There is WAY more evidence against the Big Bang than there is for it. It is a theory filled with so many holes it is unbelievable that people still support it. Yet, people like you and many scientists continue to believe it because it, "makes sense."


What is the evidence against the Big Bang?
Light Element Abundances predict contradictory densities
The Big bang theory predicts the density of ordinary matter in the universe from the abundance of a few light elements. Yet the density predictions made on the basis of the abundance of deuterium, lithium-7 and helium-4 are in contradiction with each other, and these predictions have grown worse with each new observation. The chance that the theory is right is now less than one in one hundred trillion.

Large-scale Voids are too old
The Big bang theory predicts that no object in the universe can be older than the Big Bang. Yet the large-scale voids observed in the distortion of galaxies cannot have been formed in the time since the Big Bang, without resulting in velocities of present-day galaxies far in excess of those observed. Given the observed velocities, these voids must have taken at least 70 billion years to form, five times as long as the theorized time since the Big Bang.
Surface brightness is constant
One of the striking predictions of the Big Bang theory is that ordinary geometry does not work at great distances. In the space around us, on earth, in the solar system and the galaxy (non-expanding space), as objects get farther away, they get smaller. Since distance correlates with redshift, the product of angular size and red shift, qz, is constant. Similarly the surface brightness of objects, brightness per unit area on the sky, measured as photons per second, is a constant with increasing distance for similar objects.

In contrast, the Big Bang expanding universe predicts that surface brightness, defined as above, decreases as (z+1)-3. More distant objects actually should appear bigger. But observations show that in fact the surface brightness of galaxies up to a redshift of 6 are exactly constant, as predicted by a non-expanding universe and in sharp contradiction to the Big Bang. Efforts to explain this difference by evolution--early galaxies are different than those today-- lead to predictions of galaxies that are impossibly bright and dense.”

Too many Hypothetical Entities--Dark Matter and Energy, Inflation
The Big Bang theory requires THREE hypothetical entities--the inflation field, non-baryonic (dark) matter and the dark energy field to overcome gross contradictions of theory and observation. Yet no evidence has ever confirmed the existence of any of these three hypothetical entities. Indeed, there have been many lab experiments over the past 23 years that have searched for non-baryonic matter, all with negative results. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the Big Bang does not predict an isotropic (smooth) cosmic background radiation(CBR). Without non-baryonic matter, the predictions of the theory for the density of matter are in self-contradiction, inflation predicting a density 20 times larger than any predicted by light element abundances (which are in contradiction with each other). Without dark energy, the theory predicts an age of the universe younger than that of many stars in our galaxy.

No room for dark matter
While the Big bang theory requires that there is far more dark matter than ordinary matter, discoveries of white dwarfs(dead stars) in the halo of our galaxy and of warm plasma clouds in the local group of galaxies show that there is enough ordinary matter to account for the gravitational effects observed, so there is no room for extra dark matter.

No Conservation of Energy
The hypothetical dark energy field violates one of the best-tested laws of physics--the conservation of energy and matter, since the field produces energy at a titanic rate out of nothingness. To toss aside this basic conservation law in order to preserve the Big Bang theory is something that would never be acceptable in any other field of physics.

Alignment of CBR with the Local Supercluster
The largest angular scale components of the fluctuations(anisotropy) of the CBR are not random, but have a strong preferred orientation in the sky. The quadrupole and octopole power is concentrated on a ring around the sky and are essentially zero along a preferred axis. The direction of this axis is identical with the direction toward the Virgo cluster and lies exactly along the axis of the Local Supercluster filament of which our Galaxy is a part. This observation completely contradicts the Big Bang assumption that the CBR originated far from the local Supercluster and is, on the largest scale, isotropic without a preferred direction in space. (Big Bang theorists have implausibly labeled the coincidence of the preferred CBR direction and the direction to Virgo to be mere accident and have scrambled to produce new ad-hoc assumptions, including that the universe is finite only in one spatial direction, an assumption that entirely contradicts the assumptions of the inflationary model of the Big Bang, the only model generally accepted by Big Bang supporters.)


Did you take that from my thread and not give me credit? :(
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Oct 22 2010 02:59pm
Quote (drdemon @ Oct 21 2010 11:55am)
who actually believes in god and has scientific proof to back it up?


Christianity or any religion in this case is basically a Pseudoscience

not looking to flame, looking for a serious discussion


I don't think you really understand science or religion. You really can't prove that god exists. You can't prove he doesn't exist either. Where's you scientific proof that god doesn't exist? Trying to disprove or prove gods existence is pseudoscience. You can't prove something you can't measure or interact with.

I'm not really a religious person and don't believe in the bible or any other holy book for that matter. There's many holes and things that can be shown to be false in these books. But that's beside the point. Despite a religion having holes in its belief structure you still can't disprove gods existence anymore than you can confirm it.
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